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| Morepower Member Since: 08 Jan 2013 Location: Fife, Scotland Posts: 630  
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Agreed Mike... A friend put it very well... Every car maker needs a halo product... Porsche has the 911 GT3... They only make a few, But the imagine filters down to every other Porsche...
LR had this with the Defender.... unfortunately they've p****d that up the wall now.... It doesn't matter how bad it is, It can always get worse... 2013 Bowler 110 (Sold) 2016 Bowler 90 Rally Spec (Sold) |
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8th Dec 2019 9:14pm |
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| King Luis Member Since: 23 Oct 2019 Location: Toronto Posts: 42 
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the defender was LR's halo vehicle? i'd say its the RRS SVR. i think the defender would have been something like the old 911rs. old and great for it's time.
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9th Dec 2019 3:26pm |
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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483  
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I’d have to agree with you there King Luis, if I was after a Halo vehicle in 2015 from JLR it certainly wouldn’t have been Harold Houdini’s contortionists box of tricks catering for for the average hight of a human being from 1948.
Going back to the early 90’s I’d have taken a Discovery 1 over the Defender but at that time the P38 was considered by many as the cream of the crop, despite all its problems at least you could get in and out without putting your hip out, 10 years on and the D3 knocked the Defender into a cocked hat and the FFRR as it became known was in many people’s opinion still an aspirational vehicle that set the bar in terms of comfort, luxury and off road ability. The SVR is at present the one to have and for many the one to have, If we are taking the 911 as an example, although the basic shape “teardrop” remains, the current 992 is a big car compared to the previous incarnations only as recent as 1995 the 993 Was a small car in comparison. And their Halo car would be the GT2 RS, which is the bar as to which all others are measured, and none come any where near. DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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9th Dec 2019 10:05pm |
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| King Luis Member Since: 23 Oct 2019 Location: Toronto Posts: 42
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i was trying to keep the 911 theme going on but ya, you saw my point.
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10th Dec 2019 2:21pm |
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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483
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The most recent bog standard 992 nips off 60 in a nats under 3.0 secs, the fast ones have yet to be released, a far far cry from the first 911 which by today’s standards are archaic, there is a certain element of nostalgia bestowed upon these early vehicles, most of which average about £100k, some as you mention will fetch half a million quid all day every day ! The old ones are very small, the new ones only come in wide body and are very wide and long on the road, the technology in the new 911 has permitted the most basic configuration to challenge super cars, some people hate this “Ferrari” owners, others think it’s great ! The advent of time means that things move on, when BMW adopted MINI after their brief spell at the helm of Land Rover the first thing they did was increase the size of the tiny car, VW had already succeeded with the Beetle and that’s after they moved the engine to the front ! You wouldn’t want to get into an old 911 any more than you would an old mini and travel any length of time or distance because they are great to look at but a raucous contorted spine jarring cacophony of the heat, noise, smell and vibration that is emitted to every part of your body fantastic for an hour and then the novelty wears off, Twice a month for a blatt into the peaks or nipping round the Evo triangle on a Sunday morning at 7 am is manageable. Just..... I’m enjoying RRS comfort, it’s build quality and the ability to eat up 4K miles a month. The thought of sitting in a defender at this time of year For hours on end with the cold striking thro the door shut onto the side of my body was once a novelty, Now it’s just a grimace as I think about the times I’ve hit my back on that bloody door striker !  DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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10th Dec 2019 3:01pm |
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| Morepower Member Since: 08 Jan 2013 Location: Fife, Scotland Posts: 630
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You've both missed the point... My bad.... The GT3 goes racing... It filters down the racing imagine to every Porsche... The same could have been said about a Defender (myth or not)... Joe public in the street saw it a a vehicle that could go anywhere... Ok.. not actually true... However its about perception.....
Case in point... When I did the free half day training I took the Bowler 90... Some other guy doing the course of the same day pitched up in his brand new Rangie.... NO ONE was interested in a the Rangie... I spent well over an hour answering questions about the 90... It's about perception..... It doesn't matter how bad it is, It can always get worse... 2013 Bowler 110 (Sold) 2016 Bowler 90 Rally Spec (Sold) |
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10th Dec 2019 8:09pm |
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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483
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I get exactly what you mean...... Like when I ride my Yeti Cyclo-X bike on the road and stop off at a cafe......
Some of the lads ride bikes worth 10 - 12K, they can’t believe how an aluminium bike draws so much attention when Chris Froome’s old pinnerello is next to it ! I get what your saying but if I ask 25 of my close friends or relatives if they think a defender holds any kind of light over or above a RRS SVR they would absolutely laugh in my face, baring in mind half of them have been shot at in them or blown up and the other half “farmers” stopped buying them 15 years ago when the fixed bulk head prevented any one over 5’4” from driving it, The other point I was trying to make, the new defender needs to be comfortable, refined, have driver aids, it needs to Be bigger inside and it needs to have some kind of safety features ? You couldn’t fit side impact protection in the old one ! Or air bags, or comfy seats or a glove box, to fit these in the thing has to grow up ! It needs to leave its archaic roots behind just as Toyotas HiLux did, I get that the defender is imotive but what I don’t get is why people can’t see that it has to change, P.S. The Metzger engine, lightened chassis and rose jointed suspension tricked down from the RS to the GT3, DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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10th Dec 2019 9:26pm |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3140 
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I actually think most folk acknowledge the new model had to change, they/we just feel it did not have to change quite so much nor grow in the direction it did.
I think the idea of change being opposed at every turn is not much more than a myth, all the complaints about electronics, td5, tdi etc I have no memory of from the times they came out. When I read things like "everyone opposed the TD5 when it came out because of electronics/complexity" I think - where was this, because I never saw it?! The new one I'm afraid has caused such opposition because it doesnt really have any obvious connection to the old either in vehicle type or intended buyer, and especially in the styling. The fact the "influencers" have to keep reminding us of its strong DNA link etc etc only serves to confirm it doesnt have any. 2011 110 USW 1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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11th Dec 2019 9:22am |
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1285 
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The new one I'm afraid has caused such opposition because it doesnt really have any obvious connection to the old either in vehicle type or intended buyer, and especially in the styling. The fact the "influencers" have to keep reminding us of its strong DNA link etc etc only serves to confirm it doesnt have any
I couldn't agree more. |
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11th Dec 2019 9:37am |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11240 
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I agree with everything you've said about the new one but this was definitely a 'thing' at the time. I distinctly remember it being discussed on forums and LR email lists, as well as in magazines (remember them?). The concern was about faults developing that you couldn't see (how would you fix an ecu problem in the desert, etc?) but the concerns lessened as time proved its' reliability and affordable tools such as the original Nanocom became available. By the time we got to the Disco 3, the levels of complexity were an order of magnitude higher and the same concerns were raised again. Those concerns proved to be more well founded though, and despite being a fantastic car to drive, it did suffer from some problems, some of which weren't resolved until the D4. Now, of course, the biggest worry with those cars is the cost of maintaining them as they get older when very expensive components start to fail. By and large, even the earliest LR's can still be easily maintained with a bit of ingenuity. For even the TD5 era though, some parts are now NLA or becoming prohibitively expensive (BBUS and ABS valve block, for instance). Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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11th Dec 2019 10:24am |
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| chalky Member Since: 09 May 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 483
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I bought a 300tdi Cobar Blue 90 CSW in 1999, late registered, Because of the concerns surrounding the Td5, they were definately there, LRO and Land Rover Monthly at that time were still big sellers and would often report on issues highlighted above, as well as fuel filter location ? I seem to remember fuel pump issues ? Some of the early cars as usual had issues and I think these were magnified for fear of the unknown. The used Td5 prices bottomed out instantly and the 300tdi had a field day, the old 200tdi’s also fetched strong money.
The hatred bestowed upon the D3 At launch for its up and over tailgate / split level were game Changes and the TDV6 was in league with Lucifer ! Destined for implosion, and how was a Bedouin tribesman going to fix it with all that electickery ! I read an article highlighting that tribesmen had only ever seen Land Rover vehicles and this would not be recognised as a LR product so the tribes wouldn’t know what to do 😳 No one likes change, I get that but they stopped making the Defender 4 years ago, surely it’s a good thing that the name lives on, and if all this talk of failure is correct there are going to be some new cheap cars and some very expensive old ones for sale. DEFENDER XS CSW 08 TONGA GREEN |
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12th Dec 2019 3:15am |
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| mikelike Member Since: 31 Aug 2011 Location: new zealand Posts: 108 |
Yes you are correct chalky , the tribes to this day do not recognise a D3 , they have never seen one because people drive Toyotas in the remote places of the world .
The once great globally recognised Land Rovers have disappeared to small leafy suburbs with private schools and a fancy dealership with full and very busy workshops and the latest computer diagnostic equipment . |
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13th Dec 2019 10:43am |
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| mikelike Member Since: 31 Aug 2011 Location: new zealand Posts: 108 |
Yes you are correct chalky , the tribes to this day do not recognise a D3 , they have never seen one because people drive Toyotas in the remote places of the world .
The once great globally recognised Land Rovers have disappeared to small leafy suburbs with private schools and a fancy dealership with full and very busy workshops and the latest computer diagnostic equipment . |
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13th Dec 2019 10:44am |
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| couplands Member Since: 31 Aug 2011 Location: Peak District & Cornwall Posts: 1826 
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I went to the launch event at Gordon Lamb, Chesterfield. I was completely underwhelmed by the Defender 110. It was very similar to my D4, but narrower, less room, poor 3rd row seat space and way more lower door/bumper plastic. The switch gear next to the gear stick seemed very poorly laid out and I’ve no idea how you’d operate it when driving over tough terrain. The rear load space was covered with very flimsy panels and the 3rd row seats were equally flimsy. A D4 would be a much better Defender than this new Defender. So sad....
Cheers Simon |
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13th Dec 2019 8:19pm |
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