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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

United Kingdom 
Grenadier or Rivian R1S
Is the Rivian R1S to be a serious threat to Grenadier sales? I wouldn't have initially thought so, but then I saw this Twitter video:

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/07/rivian-r...d-testing/

I would like to see it perform on rocks and mud, but I'm very impressed. It seems light years ahead of the Grenadier in design and, of course, it's fully electric. I know it's more SUV than 4x4, but Ineos are hoping for good US sales numbers, no doubt. So put your mind into that of a US buyer: already-dated looking new 4x4 with a BMW diesel engine and built in France...or a modern electric vehicle which costs only a bit more than the Grenadier (or maybe the same!)?

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/car...r-company/

I know I'm batting against some Grenadier fanboys, here, but I seriously doubt their projected sales figures (which justify their existence). And there are manufacturers who have yet to release their models, like the rumoured Toyota 4x4.



Click image to enlarge


'Imagined' Rivian R1S 4x4 Now left.
Post #914861 31st Jul 2021 8:25am
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3141

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
Do you need to carry an electric generator and more gas so that you can charge it up in the middle of nowhere? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #914870 31st Jul 2021 9:47am
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Muddybigdog



Member Since: 11 Apr 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 989

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Zambezi Silver
Great to start seeing choice in the market, personally I can see Rivian being for those who want an SUV and the Ineos for those who need an SUV Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200
Puma 90 XS - Sold
D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold)
Freelander 2 HSE - Sold
Freelander 1 - Sold
Disco 2 - Sold
Post #914871 31st Jul 2021 9:53am
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5765

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey
Personally (and as a fan boy of both) I think it will be two entirely different markets. I think the Rivian will more likely ne up against the Rubicon and Bronco for extreme off road fun and/or camping and overlanding. Enthusiasts, adventurers etc. I think the Grenadier will be sought out by professionals. Those who would use it on a daily basis, need something rugged and wholly practical. Military maybe, but mainly utilities, farms, emergency services, police etc. Both will have their lifestyle buyers as well. I think there will be cross pollination between both groups, but when it happens I think more from Rivian to Grenadier, as I see some off road enthusiasts preferring the more simple design of the Grenadier over the Rivian for longer distance expeds where the diesel will be more practical and the vehicle as a whole easier to complete in-field repairs. Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey
Post #914872 31st Jul 2021 10:23am
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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

United Kingdom 
Dinnu wrote:
Do you need to carry an electric generator and more gas so that you can charge it up in the middle of nowhere?


You can do that if you want, yes. Whether you like it or not (and I'm guessing you don't) EVs are the future, and so are EV 4x4s. The Jeep Wrangler Magneto is much awaited, and Ford is working on a Bronco EV. EVs can't be denied. Now left.
Post #914873 31st Jul 2021 10:25am
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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

United Kingdom 
Grenadier wrote:
Personally (and as a fan boy of both) I think it will be two entirely different markets. I think the Rivian will more likely ne up against the Rubicon and Bronco for extreme off road fun and/or camping and overlanding. Enthusiasts, adventurers etc. I think the Grenadier will be sought out by professionals. Those who would use it on a daily basis, need something rugged and wholly practical. Military maybe, but mainly utilities, farms, emergency services, police etc. Both will have their lifestyle buyers as well. I think there will be cross pollination between both groups, but when it happens I think more from Rivian to Grenadier, as I see some off road enthusiasts preferring the more simple design of the Grenadier over the Rivian for longer distance expeds where the diesel will be more practical and the vehicle as a whole easier to complete in-field repairs.


Thanks for your post. I think, though, that Ineos must surely be putting great hope in US sales, and like I said, imagine the typical US 4x4 buyer. He (she) has the Wrangler, the Bronco, lots of pick-ups, and the Rivian. I just cannot see where the Grenadier slots in. Yes, I know it's going to be a rugged 4x4, but US buyers are not Australians. US sales matter a lot to any manufacturer of this type of vehicle, don't they? Now left.
Post #914875 31st Jul 2021 10:29am
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3993

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
I think even those of us that are very keen on the Grenadier (Fanboys if it makes you happy) are not blind to the obstacles it faces. The increasing pressure for zero emissions won’t help its case (especially with the large and powerful engines they’ve chosen). My employer runs a large fleet (c750) 4x4 and they need at least 3000kg towing capacity so the Grenadier could be on the list of possible purchases, especially given the gradual softening of most vehicles that were in that market. Pick ups are not suitable for a number of reasons. The fly in the ointment is that like many companies we have a commitment to going zero emissions, and hybrids are seen as the logical step on that path. Ineos not offering even a mild hybrid may be a problem.

It must be acknowledged that the Grenadier is an experiment to see if a market of sufficient size exists.

What worries me is they have chosen to focus their PR and launch activities to capture relatively affluent private buyers in the U.K. they don’t seem to have done much in Australia, Middle East or the US. Also The LR Workshop video stated that they had decided NOT to chase business from NGOs or big fleets, which seems odd given the ficus it being a working vehicle. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
Post #914879 31st Jul 2021 10:54am
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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

United Kingdom 
Bluest, I think Ineos must have done their market research for likely customers before they even had a sketch of the Grenadier, and I'm sure Australia was high on that list. However, Australia accounts for a small percentage of vehicle sales, and smallish percentage of 4x4 sales. China is obviously top at 19.3 million sales annually, but second is the US at 14.6 million (Australia not even a million). Of course, these are general cars, not 4x4s, but it is proportionate sales, so the US surely is the market to go for. My point is that the Grenadier will have too much competition. I appreciate the Rivian may not be a direct competitor, but it's too close IN THE US-BUYER'S MIND. I think many there will look at the Grenadier and the Rivian...and there can only be one winner.

I may well be wrong (and I'm really going to stick my neck out here), but I will be surprised if the Grenadier actually launches, or perhaps I should say not surprised if it doesn't! I will be very surprised if it survives three years. I just don't see the market for it - to me it's out of date before it has even been launched! If you want that kind of 4x4, what's wrong with the Ibex? And when was the last time you saw one on the roads or even at a 4x4 track? (fanboys of Ibex, don't get me wrong, I love them!).

You say it's an experiment, but pouring over a billion into an experiment is beyond being risky. James Dyson had the sense to pull out, I'm not sure James Ratcliffe can stand the loss of face.

The world of cars isn't my expertise (as you may of guessed) and I've been wrong about JLR, which I thought would have folded by now, but every time I look at the business case for the Grenadier, I don't see it - it simply has too much competition. Ratcliffe should have offered Tata a decent amount for JLR, they might have taken it. Instead, he tried to buy the rights to the Defender - a halfway house. I think this idea will come and bite him, and I come back to my point that the Grenadier will really be up against 'better' vehicles. As I've said all along, the Grenadier is already out of date. Now left.
Post #914882 31st Jul 2021 11:11am
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Pacha



Member Since: 23 Feb 2020
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 771

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Stornoway Grey
The infrastructure for EV's is very poor currently. Charging at home is a struggle for the larger battery Kw/h cars - if the Rivian has a 135kw/h battery it will not charge up fully even with the current biggest 7 kw/h home charge points. Cars with half that size battery will take 8 hours @ 7kw/h. Rgds.

Chris
Post #914883 31st Jul 2021 11:35am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
Of course it's an entirely false assumption to think of this as a zero sum game. Both should do well and rather than take sales off each other will be pulling new owners from any number of other brands.

For most in the UK, it may even come down to whether Rivian build a plant here.

Amazon-backed electric vehicle maker Rivian in talks with ministers over UK factory

https://news.sky.com/story/amazon-backed-e...y-12368739

I would not be surprised if Ineos pull off initial production with the BMW engines, move on to the double cab and then look to extend their portfolio with an electrified version for both. If I was to have a punt, I'd bet that there's one of these running around or at least in the future product plan:


Click image to enlarge

https://www.defender2.net/forum/post890912...gna#890912


Last edited by Supacat on 31st Jul 2021 11:58am. Edited 1 time in total
Post #914884 31st Jul 2021 11:52am
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Farmerben



Member Since: 16 Jan 2017
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 604

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Keswick Green
Would take 12 hours to charge it from 20% to 80% on a 7.4kW charger. It will charge at 11.5 so if you had 3 phase and put a 22kw charger in it would take just shy of 8 hours. https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews
Post #914885 31st Jul 2021 11:53am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
Pacha wrote:
The infrastructure for EV's is very poor currently. Charging at home is a struggle for the larger battery Kw/h cars - if the Rivian has a 135kw/h battery it will not charge up fully even with the current biggest 7 kw/h home charge points. Cars with half that size battery will take 8 hours @ 7kw/h.


I think you are misunderstanding how people are actually using BEVs.

Daily journey to work and back, say 30 miles, on charge overnight, rinse and repeat. That's really not a struggle for a 7kW home charger.
Post #914887 31st Jul 2021 12:03pm
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Pacha



Member Since: 23 Feb 2020
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 771

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Stornoway Grey
^^^^^^

Are you suggesting that is Rivian' target market? Rgds.

Chris


Last edited by Pacha on 31st Jul 2021 12:26pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #914888 31st Jul 2021 12:09pm
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RobKeay



Member Since: 19 Jul 2009
Location: Stafford
Posts: 1561

United Kingdom 2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey
Depends on the cost.

The rivian looks like the better option to replace our landrover (unless we rebuild it, which is currently looking like the best option) I’ve been keeping a keen eye on the trackers we only drive between 40 and 200 miles a day. It must be able to tow at those distances, if so looks a good choice. The grenadier like the new defender has very poor engines. Fuel economy is very poor. The 4x4 sprinter is currently a better option than the defender or the grenadier for commercial use. They are brilliant off road.
Post #914889 31st Jul 2021 12:17pm
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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 952

United Kingdom 
Rivian definitely coming to UK, and more, could be built here! News today...

https://news.sky.com/story/amazon-backed-e...y-12368739

Again, sure to take some of Grenadier's UK sales. Now left.
Post #914900 31st Jul 2021 1:45pm
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