 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Grenadier or Rivian R1S |
 
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1284   
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I suspect with the Grenadier you won't need Scotty permanently on board to take care of the dilithium crystals
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4th Aug 2021 8:18am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Mark, I so concur! When you look at the styling of the exterior, they are so far apart. For the life of me, I can't think what the designer of the Grenadier was thinking - well, boats, apparently; as he had never designed a car before, according to the Ineos website!!!
I appreciate that some don't think they are aimed at the same market, but I respectfully strongly disagree (I mean that mostly in the large US market). There are a few who will buy the Grenadier and won't even consider the Rivian. But, there are so many who won't even look at the Grenadier when they see the Rivian. Add into that Rivian's insurance and service programme: https://stories.rivian.com/rivian-service https://stories.rivian.com/rivian-insurance (Hat tip to Zed) I appreciate that the Grenadier is rugged, while the Rivian is smooth, but I actually think that's in Rivian's favour. The 4x4 buyer seems to have moved away from hose-out vehicles. And seeing that video at the start of this thread of the Rivian climbing Moab leads me to think it will give the Grenadier a serious run on a US 4x4 course (they don't do much mud). Ineos' primary target market was/is surely the US, given the sheer number of 4x4 sales. That must be shot to pieces now, as the Rivian (and Bronco) will just take so many of their projected number. I know I may be shot down in flames, but I say again, I'll be surprised if the Grenadier launches. Any marketing department will be keeping a constant watch on projected sales. With each new 'Rivian' manufacturer - and there are more to come! - that number goes down. Reports are that Jim Ratcliffe has spent £1.2 billion, whereas James Dyson spent half that before he pulled his project. Ineos say they need circa 30,000 annual sales for it to be profitable. Just can't see it. Ineos is worth £50 billion, so he can afford the dent repairs. US sales won't begin until 2023 or even 2024! And the plan is still petrol and diesel engines (just SIX YEARS before Britain ends diesel engines!). I mean, come on! Now left. |
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4th Aug 2021 8:21am |
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| County V8 Member Since: 07 Jun 2021 Location: UK Posts: 147
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Its life Sir Jim but not as we know it
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4th Aug 2021 11:49am |
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| mikeh501 Member Since: 07 Jan 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1142
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Fine by me having physical buttons
 On the velar we have which isnt even as bad as teslas and other newer cars with everything in the screen - its literally impossible on the move to press the buttons on the touch screen accurately and so frustrating. I think the best systems were probably 5 years ago from bmw/audi.
also, didnt the enterprise explode in every film  |
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4th Aug 2021 1:25pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415 
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Agree on physical buttons. Increasing use of touchscreens is one of the biggest nuisances of modern cars. We were looking at car user interfaces a few years ago, and it was universally clear then that a touch screen UI would be clearly inferior, and downright dangerous. Practical experience has proven that to be very much the case. Car manufacturers just like them because they're (apparently) cheaper than having buttons.
The fact the Cybertruck is apparently going to have that yoke steering wheel, with no indicator stalk (buttons on wheel) and no drive selector could be a dealbreaker for me. |
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4th Aug 2021 2:48pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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I have to agree on Musk and the gimmick factor. The cars have too many half thought-through gimmicks, which really reduce their practical value. Of course Musk deserves some credit for relentlessly pushing through the vision of a battery-powered future. I feel without that we would still be years, if not decades away from that being a reality. I hear stuff about poor build quality, but honestly I'm not sure if it's really that big of a concern. I mean definitely no more than in Land Rover land. I had an issue with rear lights but they were taken care of by their guy literally driving to my home and replacing them while I sat inside working. I haven't had any other real quality issues. |
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4th Aug 2021 2:53pm |
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| markb110 Member Since: 22 May 2010 Location: Guildford Posts: 2520  
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There is of cause another thing to consider……and they are in small trousers learning their a b c’s.
I was walking through the car park in St.Mawes last week and there was a kid walking up, hand in hand with his parents. The car park on any good day has a fine cross selection of cars, old, classics, Porches, Mercs, Range Rover, Discovers, old and new Defenders and everything in between. The kid in question looked exited and said, ‘daddy, daddy, look, it’s a Tesla’. It’s was then I knew my driving days are numbered big time. Kids clearly aren’t growing up with posters of 911’s, Cossie RS 500’s and Lambos on the wall (with Samatha Fox on the reverse…. ).
I think that we can say what we like and reminisce about the past but we can’t control the next generation growing up to believe everything on the internet and let’s face it by the time they have grown up driving instructors will be driving and teaching in electric cars, all autos and no manuals. |
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4th Aug 2021 4:33pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Yep. I had a BMW i3, and had to wait for all the kids to get to their parent's cars outside the school just a few hundred yards away from where I live. And out of all the cars there, there were two teenage girls beside me going on about my i3! Now left.
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4th Aug 2021 7:25pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I didn't quote your whole post, What Puddle, but I have some thoughts. Obviously neither of us know for sure what will happen, but I'm located in Canada and spend a lot of time in the USA. In fact, the demographics of buyers for 4x4s are pretty similar in both countries, and they generally fall into one of two categories from what I've seen: 1) People who need a capable 4x4. I put myself in that category -- I need a wagon 4x4 with high payload for a global tour. But I'm super rare -- not many people plan to drive around the world! More likely this category will be filled with folks like engineers, project managers, etc.; largely white-collar workers who regularly have to work in remote, difficult-to-get-to places. The Blue-collar tradesmen are married to HD pickup trucks, but the white collar types often will go for the half-ton models or even mid-size trucks and almost never use the box. A good 4x4 wagon with a professional appearance will check a lot of boxes for these buyers -- something they can throw a few thousand dollars worth of technical equipment into, fully protected from the weather, and still get to and from a remote job site. There are no commercial wagon options for these buyers, so I think the Grenadier will carve out a niche here. 2) People who want to look like people who need one, or who want to communicate to the world that they have a "4x4 lifestyle". The majority of 4x4s purchased today in North America - pickups, Jeeps, and the new Bronco - are going to be bought by people who rarely actually use their 4x4. They might engage 4-wheel-drive once a year, maybe do an occasional weekend away down a dirt road to a state park campground or a KOA when their lifestyle permits. And honestly this is fine - I'm not passing judgement, I think people can enjoy 4x4s however they want. But, this category of buyer is very much into the "lifestyle" of owning a 4x4, as opposed to the "I need a 4x4 for my life" that I think fits in Category 1 above. The current 4x4 market in America is dominated by lifestyle vehicles. Jeep, Bronco, Chevy Colorado, Toyota Tacoma and 4-Runner -- none of these hold a candle to a proper utilitarian 4x4 like a 70-series Cruiser; all of them top out at about 1500 lbs payload or less, and most of them are scarcely used the way a professional would use a 4x4. The Rivian is firmly in that second category. It is just not a practical vehicle for most rural 4x4 commercial users. EVs are not suitable for remote industry work anytime soon. They may never get that way with innovations in other fuels like hydrogen. I just completed a 9,000 km road trip here in Canada, and we did a good mix of main roads (i.e. the Trans Canada highway) and backcountry exploration. On the main roads, we saw literally dozens of Teslas driving cross country, just like us. We intentionally counted on the return trip and saw 32 of them. There is a decent network of superchargers all along the Trans Canada highway and one can easily go from Halifax to Vancouver in a Tesla. Once we got off the main road though, there were none. In fact, many of the roads we travelled on were numbered highways and properly maintained routes of travel, but many not even paved -- there just isn't the traffic or density of people to justify asphalt, let alone superchargers, and EVs are only useful if there is a charger network. Even gas stations were scarce in these places I'm talking about. There are dozens of routes we saw with signs on them telling you "Fill up now, no services for XXX kilometres" -- an in some cases, that means without an extra couple of 5 gallon cans, you just can't take those routes -- these are remote places, and they are all over North America. But at the end of those routes are the majority of the oil fields, gold mines, forestry operations, and even research stations -- for these guys, the Rivian just isn't an option and wouldn't even make the list. That's who the Grenadier is aimed at. There will be a ton of the category 2 "Lifestyle" buyers who go for the Grenadier to have something unique or different; many of them will be diverted by the Rivian for sure (or the F-150 Lightening, or the Bronco, or the Jeep EV, etc.) as you have said. But for the remote commercial/industrial users, I don't think the Rivian will even make the list of options, and I think that's the sweet spot for the Grenadier and they can have a great deal of success there. |
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4th Aug 2021 8:12pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Thanks for your considered and educational post. Obviously we don't know the political future of the US or Canada, how far it's going to swing toward EVs even though, as you say, there aren't the charging points. The thing is, though, are there enough potential buyers for the Grenadier (in your section 1)? That's the key question. Sure, there's bound to be some, even quite a few, in a population of a few hundred million people, but enough to make the Grenadier profitable? They say they have to shift 30,000 a year for that. Can you tell me why other vehicles don't fulfill that segment (for you); why not the Defender? Why not the Land Cruiser? Admittedly both more expensive than the Grenadier.
You say that the Rivian won't be considered for those in section 1, but for how long do you think the Grenadier will have internal combustion engines? As I said, by the time it launches in North America, it will be just six years away from being banned here. And as I said, we don't know what pressures governments are going to come under from the green lobby. Also, within just a few years, battery EVs will have very long ranges - it is coming. Although I bow to your superior knowledge of the North American market, things are changing VERY fast. Go back ten years and predict how quickly EVs have progressed and sold. The change will be much quicker than the past 10 years. There is one glimmer of hope for western governments (on the subject of the green lobby). We are very possibly about to enter a cooling phase which may last for two or three decades. It's called the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation. The warming (since around 1980) may well be on a downward shift. 
This may well curtail the push towards eco-everything for quite some time, and push back the drive toward total EVs. In which case, the political moves towards greening in the US may stall. Added to that (given that US politics swings pendulum like) we may see the Republicans in for two terms if things follow their current path 
Again, thanks for your post. Now left. |
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4th Aug 2021 9:01pm |
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| Zed Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: In the woods Posts: 3013
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Penn State professor Michael Mann thought he’d discovered an ocean temperature phenomenon (AMO). Now he’s sure—that it doesn’t exist.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/20...-explained WARNING. This post may contain sarcasm. |
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4th Aug 2021 11:25pm |
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| Prospector Member Since: 08 Jul 2021 Location: Arizona Posts: 17 
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Let me speak to the North American market for Electric Powered Vehicles. There is a lot of vehicle and battery design going into the forward thinking of EV’s, but the distribution and electric generation needed to supply this additional electrical demand are seriously lagging. During the last two years some areas have experienced mandated rolling blackouts to not overload distribution grid demand. There is questionable electric supply now, without adding the transportation section to the electrical demand.
Personal vehicle miles per passenger is far greater in North American (and Australia) than European markets. Distances between start and end points for daily driving are generally much greater too. Add to this, there are more cars per person of driving age here than in Europe. Typical driving age is 16 years in the US and Canada (with learner permits beginning at 15), whereas much of Europe is older. Economically strong European countries are ahead of the game in regard to electric generation, and with typically shorter driving distances, will be able to more readily absorb EV’s into the driving market. In the US there are just enough charging stations in dense areas for existing EV’s, but anyone driving a Tesla in the American west must plan their route carefully and be prepared to allow an hour to charge the vehicle if travelling far. The demand for electric energy is steadily increasing. Output from traditional power generators (nuclear, coal fired, gas fired, and hydro) are relatively stagnant. Yes, solar and wind power infrastructure has been added to the generation side, but power storage is not efficient enough to release power into the grid ratably 24/7. Traditional sources are expected to take up the slack at times when solar and wind electrical power is not transmittable. The US has in place a reliable petroleum-based fuel production and distribution system. Over 98% of all vehicles driven depend on petroleum. Now comes the idiocrasy of the US Political Lawmakers. It is absurd to think that electrical power can ramp up to supply electricity to an all-new electric fleet in 15 years (with aging internal combustion vehicles diminishing from the highways). It takes several years to be granted building permits for traditional electrical generators. Additionally, the US Lawmakers are committed to closure of coal fired generators, some which have been shutdown and new ones denied building permits. There will be a place for internal combustion engine vehicles for many years in the US. EV’s will be added to the US driving inventory as long as there is electric power generation and distribution available for the consuming public. Lawmakers will then point fingers at anyone and everyone (but themselves) about “why is there insufficient electrical power.” I do not think Ineos need to be concerned about producing petroleum fueled vehicles in the first generation of the Grenadier. There will be a demand for a “out-of-the-box” beam axle, front and rear locker, 4x4 internal combustion vehicle in the US. For the record, I like the interior design of the Grenadier, too. |
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5th Aug 2021 3:22am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Zed, he also tried to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period because it was inconvenient. He'll be going for the Sun, next. https://www.cfact.org/2019/10/01/mann-hayh...rm-period/ Interesting piece by Judith Curry on her site about Mann's attempt to make out the AMO isn't real. https://judithcurry.com/2021/03/06/canceling-the-amo/ Now left. |
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5th Aug 2021 7:27am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Prospector:
I missed this last week: "Biden Seeking Pledge for 40% of Car Sales to Be EV by 2030" Won't they simply bring in 'emergency powers' to push through legislation - re: building permits for power generators? As I said, I think politics plays a huge role in this, not like it does in Britain, where all parties want to go full-on 'green' - what they say is green, anyway. Things in the US are going to have to shift, surely? Car manufacturers are pushing on towards EVs without actually waiting for governments to tell them to do so. It seems like every month that another car manufacturer announces no more internal combustion engines. They aren't going to make two different cars. May we see US imports of global cars fall, then? EU - plotting to ban engines in just four years Ford - in just 5 years, 100 percent of its European passenger vehicles will be “zero emissions capable,” either all electric or plug-in hybrid, with full electrification in 9 years GM - in 14 years VW - in 14 years Volvo - in 9 years Toyota - engines to account for just 10% in just 4 years DS (part of Stellantis) - in 3 years Stellantis - no investment in engines, from now... Click image to enlarge First electric Jeep in 2023 Now left.Last edited by What puddle? on 5th Aug 2021 6:47pm. Edited 3 times in total |
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5th Aug 2021 10:14am |
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