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lozza



Member Since: 13 Oct 2016
Location: oxfordshire
Posts: 190

did not think it would be long before someone says "most people dont ect ect ...."we sell all these sheep to the eu...what suddenly they are going to change there taste...tariffs i hear you cry.......all those bmw audi merc ..french crap... ducati ktm ect ect ect... what suddenly they aint going to export to the uk any more...no of course the will and if they want access to our market with there goods of whatever description we will have access to their market for all our goods

it's so simple


just remember all these so called experts wanted us to join the euro 10 yr ago
Post #747062 23rd Dec 2018 4:28pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3993

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
My own personal view, as a layman, is that it was impossible to make an informed judgment on which way to vote. I think a lot of folk voted at an emotional or ideological level. All political sides were peddling statistics, facts and information which was at best biased and in some cases just made up Censored . This really has shown politicians up for the useless, lieing, self serving fools many (not all) of them are.

The rise of social media and its ease of manipulation has made things worse. I share a lot of my views with Brendan above, but it is largely impossible to have a reasoned debate with anyone I know because I don’t have anything other than the garbage I’ve been told by the media to use as evidence, and neither do most others. This means people quickly get emotional and start name calling.

Fingers crossed it turn out ok. Cant wait for it to be over. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS


Last edited by Bluest on 23rd Dec 2018 5:14pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #747064 23rd Dec 2018 4:33pm
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discomog



Member Since: 09 May 2015
Location: Notts/Lincs Border
Posts: 2494

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black
Pickles, here's another view from Oz, written by former PM Tony Abbott:-

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?
A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.
Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015 Defender 90XS SW
Mini Countryman Cooper S
Morgan Plus 8
Post #747067 23rd Dec 2018 5:05pm
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Fabio



Member Since: 05 Aug 2011
Location: Somerset
Posts: 589

Portugal 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black
Fabio

Last edited by Fabio on 25th Dec 2018 6:27pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #747068 23rd Dec 2018 5:17pm
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integrale



Member Since: 29 Oct 2015
Location: Auckland
Posts: 77

New Zealand 
WindyJ wrote:
integrale wrote:
Sorry Pickles, but I think you know you are going to foment divisive opinions with that post.



Personally I think people insinuating that others not to bring the subject up because it’s “divisive” are without doubt the ones who seek to divide and are by that insinuation are attempting to brandish those who do as “bad” people. Pure NPC.


Brexit is a divisive subject. No-one can deny it.

Personally, I believe this forum best serves Land Rover related discussion, rather than political, religious or other matters, for which any number of alternative discussion platforms exist.

Clearly, WindyJ, you disagree – hence your recent post that “Britain needs a Trump.” That’s your view and you’re entitled to it, but you know it’s a controversial remark.

Is this the appropriate forum for contentious political debate? Or, should we reserve it for things we all share in common – like enjoyment of Land Rovers? That was my point to Pickles.


Last edited by integrale on 23rd Dec 2018 8:25pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #747077 23rd Dec 2018 6:23pm
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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

United Kingdom 
Reasoned debate? That is the difficult part bluest.

Now because I used to do research I am used to giving references. Yes it might land up being long winded.

The third section of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty states

Quote:


3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of
the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in
paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned,
unanimously decides to extend this period



So all treaties between the EU and the UK from last 40 years cease to apply on withdrawal unless a transition period is agreed.


Tariffs and VAT?


Quote:


Subject to any transitional arrangement that may be contained in a possible withdrawal
agreement, as of the withdrawal date, the EU rules in the field of customs and indirect taxation (VAT and excise duties – see below, 2) no longer apply to the
United Kingdom.5
This has in particular the following consequences as of the withdrawal date


Goods which are brought into the customs territory of the EU from the United
Kingdom are subject to Council Regulation (EEC) No 2658/87 of 23 July 1987 on the
tariff and statistical nomenclature and on the Common Customs Tariff.

This implies
the application of the relevant customs duties.

and


Goods which enter the VAT territory of the EU from the United Kingdom or are
dispatched or transported from the VAT territory of the EU to the United Kingdom
will respectively be treated as importation or exportation of goods in accordance with
Council Directive 2006/112/EC of 28 November 2006 on the common system of
value added tax (the 'VAT Directive').
10 This implies charging VAT at importation,
while exports are exempt from VAT.



So no frictionless trade



Health care whilst on temporary visits to Europe is currently provided under EHIC rules

Quote:


Entitlement of healthcare under the Union law on social security
coordination99
Union law100 provides for access to healthcare during temporary stay abroad
based on European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) or, for planned treatments,
based on the prior authorisation by the relevant competent institution (e.g. the
institution with which the person concerned is insured).
Costs of such healthcare are reimbursed between the relevant institutions of
the Member States involved.
As of the withdrawal date, these rules no longer apply vis-à-vis the United
Kingdom




Type approval? After the UK leaves the EU the UK will not be accepted as a type approval authority.



All those statements can be found HERE . There are many other things which will effect the UK and its citizens if the UK leaves the EU without a deal which is listed there. So have a read for yourselves.


If people want to see the GBP v euro rate have a look here . Basically the £ is roughly trading at its lowest against the euro in 20 years apart from a very short period at the worst point in the economic crisis.


Brendan
Post #747079 23rd Dec 2018 6:38pm
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boode



Member Since: 11 Apr 2012
Location: Devon
Posts: 421

England 2003 Defender 90 Td5 HT Rutland Red
lozza wrote:
"we sell all these sheep to the eu...what suddenly they are going to change there taste


No, the same will happen when BSE hit the press and the Europeans banned all cattle exports from the UK - they did not starve, they simply bought their meat from elsewhere - however in the UK with no market for beef, the industry collapsed and most bull calves were shot at birth as there was no export - not pleasant shooting day old calves each morning
Post #747081 23rd Dec 2018 6:42pm
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Pickles



Member Since: 26 May 2013
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3748

Australia 2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Keswick Green
As I thought, & as I have always thought, about this Forum, when I, as a "Newby" Defender owner sought information, it was always forthcoming, in a rational, friendly, manner.
And that is what I have received here from you guys, calm sensible responses with a lot of information I never knew about. I don't see a single issue with discussions of this nature with input such as what has come out in this thread.
Tony Abbott?!!..I'm a BIG fan of Tony, I would've liked him to remain as our P.M. I thought that article was pretty good?
davew, & Brendan, I thank you both for your most informative posts, and Brendan, I like your reference to "Poisoned Chalice", because that is exactly what I think she got.
Things are definitely changing in the World, you guys have Brexit, and we have some pretty serious challenges in Aussie too.
Some of you may know I'm British, well 50% English & 50% Welsh, so I suppose I may have more of an interest in Brexit than many Aussies!
Thank You, Pickles.
Post #747097 23rd Dec 2018 8:56pm
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Slideywindows



Member Since: 09 Sep 2016
Location: North Essex
Posts: 1283

England 
It's not "the economy, stupid!"

It's "your liberty, stupid!"

Freedom doesn't come for free.

Freedom costs.

It always did.

Get over it.

The Country will.
Post #747099 23rd Dec 2018 9:15pm
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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

United Kingdom 
Pickles, what we actually required is calm, informed discussion. Not name calling, no comments such as stupid woman, morons etc, no entrenched views, no fake news/information and no party politics playing with what is rapidly becoming a national emergency. The house of commons and both major political parties are not treating this subject with the calm and respect it is due putting party politics above national interest.

The referendum was a simple in/out to the EU, no mention of the single custom union, no mention of the Northern Ireland issue, no explanation of what happens after brexit or how long in practise it will take to sort out.

As for the chance of a second referendum, people are arguing it is undemocratic, not listening to the people etc. Now when it comes to democracy etc. We have in the UK a maximum of 5 years between general elections. Democracy allows people to change their minds as they become more informed hence general elections max 5 years, local elections can be more frequent.

Now I try to separate facts from opinion hence why I always try to reference any 'fact' as far as possible.

In my opinion the EU needs a massive reform. In my opinion free trade with minimal restrictions are important. Free movement of people yes, the right to reside or work in another country is a completely different question. This all needs discussing in a calm considered manner.


Brendan
Post #747101 23rd Dec 2018 9:46pm
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lozza



Member Since: 13 Oct 2016
Location: oxfordshire
Posts: 190

democracy is what we ...the people want...you can bend twist change and tell us we are all wrong blah blah

we the majority want out and all your clever words about how thick we all are cos we voted " in your opinion" the wrong way mean nothing OUT OUT OUT
Post #747105 23rd Dec 2018 10:35pm
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Badger110



Member Since: 06 Feb 2018
Location: South hams
Posts: 1024

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Buckingham Blue
discomog wrote:
Pickles, here's another view from Oz, written by former PM Tony Abbott:-

"It’s pretty hard for Britain’s friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess that’s being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesn’t seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, it’s baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.
Let’s get one thing straight: a negotiation that you’re not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation — it’s surrender. It’s all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britain’s EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that he’d never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that she’s desperate for whatever deal she can get.
The EU’s palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that there’s only one ‘deal’ on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because it’s terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.
But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, it’s not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. It’s time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU can’t make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year — and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the world’s fifth-largest economy?
A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You don’t need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows what’s in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.
Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently — and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you don’t need a deal. You don’t need Michel Barnier’s permission. If Europe knows what’s best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.
Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain — but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign worker’s tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.
Fourth, no ‘divorce bill’ whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EU’s property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britain’s share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasn’t getting its fair share, it’s the EU that should be paying Britain.
Finally, there’s no need on Britain’s part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldn’t be imposing tariffs on European goods, so there’s no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so let’s not pretend you need to check for problems we all know don’t exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.
Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US — but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? We’re talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).
UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. It’s been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And let’s not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.
As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britain’s future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britain’s admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it."
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015


This is the kind of attitude required by UK politicians. i understand it's easier to give advice when it doesn't affect your country, or more importantly in UK politics, your career, however i like this chaps ideology.
Post #747108 23rd Dec 2018 11:32pm
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Procta



Member Since: 03 Dec 2016
Location: Sunderland
Posts: 4909

United Kingdom 
The bottom line to it all is the UK doesn't have a back bone anymore, the government just takes the Censored out of us, and we all let them sadly. Not enough people willing to strike for our stuff anymore now, but then again, we have practically Censored all now. I have said this before, if there was another world war, the UK would be Censored straight away. Defender TD5 90 ---/--- Peugeot 306 HDI hatch back

Success is 90% Inspiration and 4 minutes Preparation # you can make it!
Post #747109 24th Dec 2018 12:33am
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WindyJ



Member Since: 18 Oct 2018
Location: France
Posts: 190

integrale wrote:
WindyJ wrote:
integrale wrote:
Sorry Pickles, but I think you know you are going to foment divisive opinions with that post.



Personally I think people insinuating that others not to bring the subject up because it’s “divisive” are without doubt the ones who seek to divide and are by that insinuation are attempting to brandish those who do as “bad” people. Pure NPC.


Brexit is a divisive subject. No-one can deny it.

Personally, I believe this forum best serves Land Rover related discussion, rather than political, religious or other matters, for which any number of alternative discussion platforms exist.

Clearly, WindyJ, you disagree – hence your recent post that “Britain needs a Trump.” That’s your view and you’re entitled to it, but you know it’s a controversial remark.

Is this the appropriate forum for contentious political debate? Or, should we reserve it for things we all share in common – like enjoyment of Land Rovers? That was my point to Pickles.


Oh well, if YOU think its not the forum for it then it cant be can it Bow down

The clue is in the forums actual title “OFF TOPIC” .... you are welcome to keep to the LR specific areas of the site, but dont come in this part and lecture people to what they should or should not be discussing.
Post #747115 24th Dec 2018 7:35am
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lozza



Member Since: 13 Oct 2016
Location: oxfordshire
Posts: 190

In 2017 the UK made an estimated gross contribution (after the rebate) of £13.0 billion. The UK received £4.1 billion of public sector receipts from the EU, so the UK’s net public sector contribution to the EU was an estimated £8.9 billion.

UK's net contribution to the EU
Post #747120 24th Dec 2018 8:06am
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