 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Main Grenadier discussion thread |
 
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1287   
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Yes, based on the pictures, the body construction doesn't appear to lend itself to mix and match configurations. There looks to be no easy way to convert say the station wagon into a truck cab or dual cab pick-up. That could be a limiting factor for specialist conversions which potentially could make up a chunk of future sales volumes. I guess they have had to build it that way to provide sufficient roll over protection without adopting a Wrangler type solution of an integral roll frame, clad with removable roof and side panels. An integral roll frame works OK on the Wrangler, but I can imagine it would be restrictive for specialist conversions anyway. I am very impressed with the commitment, the engineering and the sheer scale of the venture. I don't see it as a rich man's folly. It goes way beyond that in my opinion. There must surely be some senior management left in JLR who are scratching their heads over JLR's current direction of travel. I wonder though how much thought has gone into the design to make it all electric ready? I guess the fact that there is space underneath to sling the fuel tank flush with the floor might suggest there is enough space for banks of batteries. |
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18th Feb 2021 12:37pm |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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I wasn’t specifically meaning off-road, more in terms of overall ability. The Ineos CEO said its on-road ability will be “fine for anyone who’s used to driving, say, a Jeep Wrangler”. That’s a very, very low bar for an all-new vehicle in 2021 (and a big part of the reason solid axles are an anachronism). Off-road is a very broad church - what’s good in one situation might not be in another, but for my use (and in my experience) I can’t see any benefits the Grenadier will bring. |
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18th Feb 2021 1:32pm |
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| Zed Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: In the woods Posts: 3036
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I have no interest in buying a Grenadier but with the Defender now out of production there is a gap in the marketplace for a proper 4x4. It will be interesting to see how it does. The main issue I can see is the absence of planning for an EV version. Hopefully they will address that in the near future. WARNING.
This post may contain sarcasm. |
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18th Feb 2021 2:48pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Given Ineos's position as a chemical producer, and the news from a few months back that they have partnered with Hyundai on Hydrogen power plants, I think that the non-Fossil Fuel alternative is likely to be Hydrogen, not Electric. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ine...gen-happen
Have you driven a jeep recently, Philip? Both the JK and the JL have very good road manners as compared to solid axle vehicles of years gone by -- with a good leap even for the JL over the JK -- so I wouldn't agree that it's a "very, very low bar". The same is true of the modern HD-series trucks from the Big Three -- they have excellent road manners even with solid axles front and rear and 1-ton plus payloads. These are not the road-wandering Solid Axle vehicles of the 1980s anymore, and the majority of driving applications (i.e. running about at highway speeds or less) won't be significantly impacted by the minor difference of the driving experience between a modern solid axle or an independent suspension vehicle. Off road, solid axles are proven, simple, and effective for decades -- which is what remote tourers want. That and a high payload, wagon-configuration is actually the preferred, I dare-say "Holy Grail" vehicle for remote area tourers. Besides all that, the Ineos isn't being built and marketed as a "one in every driveway" car -- it's being designed for a specific, niche use case, with low volume sales. In the USA alone they sell about 800,000 "Lifestyle" vehicles in 4x4 configuration (mid-sized trucks and jeeps only -- it was a quick napkin calculation I just did). Ineos is profitable at 25,000 units worldwide based on what they've said -- that's an incredibly niche vehicle even at double the sales volume. I suspect, much like the Rubicon package on the Jeep, that many of the people who buy the Ineos don't actually need it for what it's designed for and are going for the idea of what it can do more than anything else, but that's OK -- if not for those buyers, they might never sell enough Rubicons to justify the package, and I think a similar thing will happen with Ineos. The relatively small number of people who truly use a vehicle for seriously remote recreation or commercial work are almost universally in favour of the design decisions made by Ineos -- we've been begging for a vehicle like this for years. While I get that this car isn't for everyone -- in many cases for the reasons you've pointed out in this thread -- I don't know if I would dismiss the vehicle as somehow sub-par or incapable or less-than because of design decisions that cater to a very niche market. That's a bit like getting mad at John Deere for not having paddle shifters on their tractors, or being annoyed that Airport Stair Cars don't have a better 0-60 time -- It's just not the purpose of the vehicle to have or need that stuff. The same is true here -- if you want a vehicle with the best possible road manners, modern interior appointments, electronically controlled doo-dads that make life wonderful, and 4-wheel drive capability, there are literally dozens of models at almost every price point to fit that need. If you need a simple, robust, utilitarian 4x4 in a wagon format with a 1-ton payload using proven design choices that can be repaired almost anywhere for remote recreation or commercial work, you have...the Grenadier, and that's it. (Speaking from a North American perspective here -- I'm aware that Toyota have a few rigs that match my description above but we can't get them here - and even if you could, I don't even think they have USB ports on the new Troopies or 70 series LCs; they are a far cry from a "modern" version of a solid axle 4x4 which is what the Ineos is shaping up to be). |
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18th Feb 2021 9:16pm |
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| Black Puma Member Since: 31 Jan 2015 Location: Sydney Posts: 175 
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interesting that there are comparisons with the new Defender. Those fortunate enough to own and be able to afford the new Def, will indeed enjoy exceptional off road capabilities. I saw one video where the car was virtually driving it's self up huge rocks wheels shuddering and correcting traction loss, causing the driver zero drama. Akin to an off-road lobotomy. And the on-road manners of the new Def I'm sure are impeccable.
I'd agree with most of what Chasing Trunks wrote. Adding, that we actually have the Toyota's here in Aus, they are a heap of fun to drive, and use an obnoxious amount of fuel. I'm sure those after a grenadier are searching for that certain visceral engagement. Hence the bemoan of auto only gearbox. As I remember reading up on the defenders before I purchased mine, with so many reports that it's uncomfortable, not practical for the highway. I drove it and could not fathom what all the fuss is about, it's fine, easy to drive and enjoyable. I don't want to sit on a sumptuous leather couch getting from A to B, in climate controlled soundproof silence. It was getting to a point of how many times do I have to hear Viki Butler-Henderson mock the agricultural comfort of the Defender and how useless it is on the road. Seriously, I have no idea why they wasted those media opportunities with people having that view. Concerns on pricing. The more complaints about pricing, the further from the UK it will need to be manufactured. You get what you pay for. Back in 2011I would happily paid 10 or 20% more to have had my Defender built properly from new, with better materials for durability. And I'd happy pay an extra 20% if they still produced the original Defender. A fair guess would be that all owners of the New Defender, will sell the vehicle after 2 or 3 years and buy the next car out. But at least half of the buyers of the Grenadier will be looking to hold onto the vehicle much longer, more like a decade. At which point the purchase price has disappeared in the rear view mirrors. |
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19th Feb 2021 6:39am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765  
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ChasingOurTrunks and Black Puma, both well said.
I just about might consider the Grenadier as my daily driver, it can only be more comfortable and refined than my DC which is my current daily, as it suits what I need/want a car to do here in the Alps. I’d then keep the DC for special occasions. I don’t want ‘just another SUV’ and for comfort/luxury/speed/handling I’ll simply use whatever Mrs Grenadier has at any given moment or may, if the moment takes me, buy myself another car. But as you both point out, this is the clear successor to the Puma, offering everything the Puma did just better: better engineering, better tech, better space, better power and by the looks of things, it’ll likely offer better QC, comfort, road manners and perhaps even off road ability. All the things Puma owners probably wanted addressed by LR, but never were, and as Black Puma points out, seem to be constantly discussed by Defender nay’sayers as being awful and agricultural when they’re not. I only raise my eyes to the ceiling when my Def doesn’t start and never because of comfort levels or handling. Would I ever change it? Not in a month of Sundays. And I’m not alone. Given LR were capable of selling 20k ‘cr*p’ Pumas per year at their peak, and without any access to the US market and little access to SE Asia and Australasia, there’s every likelihood this will sell in excess of its 25k break-even target. There will be a whole heap of true Defender ‘fans’ it might attract globally, plus many who need it for commercial reasons, plus those who want a robust overlander, but also perhaps some of the overlanders in the US, SA and Oz who currently buy RRS/Discos/New Def who didn’t consider the Puma because it was either unavailable, unreliable or had rubbish A/C. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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19th Feb 2021 8:15am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3998 
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Just rewatched the video and noticed it’s got 6 stud wheels now. I’m sure all the earlier versions we’ve seen only had 5. I know not what the significance of this is, but interesting to me. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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19th Feb 2021 9:50am |
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| Hufflepuff Member Since: 25 Oct 2014 Location: Hampshire Posts: 723  
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They did talk about price in the comments on that latest video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m_1lijldws), where the Ineos YouTube representative stated:
So we are up to £45k now. What's the betting this figure is before 'on the road' taxes, and other shinanigans? I don't think it will be in the farmers truck market. 2005 Td5 90 XS 1989 V8 110 CSW |
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19th Feb 2021 9:57am |
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1287
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I wonder if they are the same pcd as some of the Japanese 6 stud rims as used on Mitsubishi's, Nissan's and Toyota's? That would make it easier to get a replacement rim off the beaten track. Or perhaps just the recommendation from Carraro for the size of axle that Ineos are using? |
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19th Feb 2021 10:16am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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^^^ Agreed Hufflepuff. I suppose it depends on what Ineos deems as being the 'target' market when they announced there was a space for a genuine, utilitarian 4x4. I'm not a farmer, but is the Ineos vision for the Grenadier one that would appeal to farmers or do they look for a balance of some 4x4 ability, reliability, robustness and a large open load area? Is all that of greater need? Alternatively, did farmers stop buying Defenders solely because they were too expensive (they could always buy second hand) or because they were too expensive, but also unreliable and didn't have quite the load capacity that a hilux might have? A combination of factors, rather than just price. Reliability will presumably be addressed by the Grenadier, but in doing so not at a low enough price, so that will put some off. But without in-house flat bed versions, one would also argue 'usability' will put many farmers off. Will a double cab offer enough given how similar the proportions are to a 110? So, I wonder if Ineos see the Grenadier as being a 4x4 vehicle for farmers or primarily for the many other commercial/enthusiast users. No different to the New Def. Clearly, as Harry from Harry's garage has proven, you can drive the New Def around a farm and chuck a hay bale in the back. But if you're not a gentleman farmer covering the expanses of your estate in comfort, are you really likely to have chosen the New Defender as your go-to farm vehicle even at half the price it currently is. As mentioned above, the Grenadier has a very defined niche. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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19th Feb 2021 10:16am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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If it is, that's the level of attention to detail in real world usage that I'm liking from the development team. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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19th Feb 2021 10:18am |
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| Philip Member Since: 09 Mar 2018 Location: England Posts: 510
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There are some valid points about why someone might want to buy a Grenadier, but I’m still not convinced that they justify the design choices and the compromises they bring. The idea that it’s OK for it to be wilfully hobbled as a thing to drive and travel in for 99% of situations because there’s a tiny window of off-road use in which two live axles might potentially be a benefit seems bizarre; I can’t imagine anyone buying a long-wheelbase station wagon instead of a Wrangler if deliberately driving over giant boulders was their thing (I’ve also read suggestions that the Grenadier’s design looks like it might not offer great articulation, but that remains to be seen).
Not sure about this - the Grenadier is an all-new vehicle that shares very little with anything else, and has engines and a gearbox which are as complicated and advanced as it’s possible to be. There’s zero parts or service support anywhere, and no plans to have them - which means you’re at the mercy of the “major repair centre chain” yet to be announced (do they have Halfords Autocentres in the Outback?) Rather than sharing wheels, if easy repair is the aim, why wouldn’t you just buy a whole vehicle with decades of existing support, knowledge, parts supply, dealers and so on?
Farmers largely stopped buying Defenders for the same reason everyone else did - because they were woefully outdated and the alternatives were just far more (objectively) appealing - more space, more comfort, more performance, lower cost, better reliability, fewer leaks etc. I’m sure you’ll see the odd Grenadier on a farm here, but I can’t see it brings anything new compared with what’s currently available (UK farmers generally not being Crocodile Dundee, lunar explorers or 4x4 Response Walts). |
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19th Feb 2021 1:40pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11240 
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You do realise that this is a Defender forum and that most of us have already accepted that compromise? 
Seriously though, I'm sure that we all get that you don't like it but I think you're overstating this 'hobbled' thing. Not everything needs to be Range Rover-esque. First and foremost, the Grenadier is supposed to be a commercial vehicle and it's this perceived level of robustness that, in turn, appeals to non-commercial users like overlanders and the current crop of hobbyist Defender owners. Whether it lives up to that ideal remains to be seen but the attention to detail shown so far is promising. Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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19th Feb 2021 2:13pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Up to? Where did you start from? |
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19th Feb 2021 2:30pm |
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