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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 5925

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

Supacat wrote:
I've subscribed several times but don't appear to be getting any updates, so thanks for posting.

Looks interesting. Not seen anything of Mark Evans for ages, his build series were always good watching.

Tractor axles, I wonder if we will get the 3 point linkage and hydraulics also Wink

The pto must be a given?

And from their website:

"We're specialised in axles designing and manufacturing for light commercial vehicles. Within this sphere, our range includes portal axles,"

Portal axles... Shocked

https://www.carraro.com/en


Its 4 link in the video, same as most ultra4 vehicles. Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
90 tdci Softtop
90 tdci Hardtop

Post #819182 11th Mar 2020 9:33pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 2717

Ireland 

Morepower wrote:
Guy's you like LR are missing the point... Build a basic vehicle and make it commercial qualifying and if it's just got enough luxury then you 'Should' sell a lot... Ford and VW are teaming up on product development in this area... The market is HUGE... Asia, Africa, South America are massive growth markets (nearly everything is a utility vehicle)...
Unlike the SUV market which is burgeoned with new players, All who unfortunately appear to build a better vehicle than LR... Maybe not as capable???... But really, When was the last time you saw a Full Fat RR being smashed about off road... Interesting fact 93% of them are leased so that's not going to happen

just my 2p's worth

Tim

Regarding the above, didn't LR exit this type of market because they could not compete on price? One would have thought that the 109/110/ HiCap pickup would have been ideal for the South American and African markets. I think if INEOS want to target these and other markets like South Asia they will need to be able to compete on price. No one knows what the price point of GRENADIER will be but from what has been surmised it will be more expensive than the last Defender. Also a pickup version for overseas markets will be a prerequisite. You would think that a basic pickup would be fairly inexpensive to produce and some of these markets might not have the same safety standards that Europe has. So you could end up with a very basic specification for overseas markets. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

Post #819192 11th Mar 2020 10:09pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 7090

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Tim in Scotland wrote:
I agree Mike c, it is going to be such an incredibly niche product selling in tiny numbers that I suspect it’s price might make the New Defender look a bit of a bargain....... for a start whoever has heard of the manufacturer? It’s not exactly a household name like Land Rover is.


It will sell on it's engineering and it will sell to an informed public who actually know what they are looking at and know what it will do for them. They will be buying the product and not the lifestyle or brand.

Who had heard of say, Tesla, 5 or 6 years ago?

Post #819196 11th Mar 2020 10:19pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 7090

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Mike c wrote:
Surely this will be a niche market, which is exactly where Land Rover found themselves with the "old" Defender, too expensive to build without the profit

Where do you get it that the Defender never made a profit?

With regard to niche markets within the JLR portfolio then the Defender was not the smallest, in 2015:

Jag XE 23,621
Jag XJ 12,536
Jag F type 11,662

Defender 23,127.

In 2019 4 of Jag's models sold significantly less than the old Defender was averaging - @20,000 per annum.

The point being 20,000 retail sales in a "niche" market can be profitable and is certainly sustainable over a long period of time; and if it's not then JLR should have been investing it's limited resources into sorting out it's worst performing models; not killing it's iconic model.

Unless the agenda was not driven by purely business interests?


Last edited by Supacat on 12th Mar 2020 10:16am. Edited 1 time in total

Post #819198 11th Mar 2020 10:21pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 2288

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

Spudfan - I forget the exact % (I want to say 20%, but probably wrong), Ineos have definitely said the Grenadier will be above the price of current double cabs, like Hi Lux. I don’t know how that compares to bigger things like the Ford F-150 or 79 series ‘Cruiser! But sounds like it would be comparable. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #819208 11th Mar 2020 10:43pm
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 4507

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

Supacat wrote:
I've subscribed several times but don't appear to be getting any updates, so thanks for posting.


I get special treatment because I’m, um, a Grenadier. Whistle Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

Post #819224 12th Mar 2020 7:51am
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 4507

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

A few thoughts:

First, I don’t think brand awareness will be a problem. If you have a passionate (and Uber-wealthy) backer, with the brand power of his/her main company, and you create a quality product that provides genuine appeal (which this should, based on engineering quality) you should find buyers. At a global scale, look at what Musk/Tesla have achieved, also from scratch. Further, should he do it properly, this vehicle could hold great appeal to numerous buyers who would look for a fleet. The MOD for starters. Indeed, I’m pretty sure I heard that the only reason the Defender had any financial viability, was the MOD contract. In this regard, with the number of vehicles bought from outside the LR stable by the MOD to replace models like the Snatch because of the problems in Afghanistan, (shortly before the announcement that production would be stopping was made), I wonder if this impacted JLRs decision to scrap the Puma?

Second, I don't think LR binned ‘our’ Defender purely on price/profit. I think there was a ‘vision’ led by McGovern to create a brand which looked the same across the LR range. All brands are doing it. Chop off everything from behind the a-Pillar and almost all Audis/BMWs/Mercs/Porsches look the same across their range. JLR were after the same and Defender wasn’t exempt with McGovern at the wheel.

Audi Q8:


Click image to enlarge


Audi Q3:


Click image to enlarge


Evoque:


Click image to enlarge


Velar:


Click image to enlarge


And whilst it is clearly more ‘robust’, you can see the DNA in the New Defender:


Click image to enlarge


But, if they did the same as Merc, and recreated the Puma Defender, the lineage between all models in the brand looks suddenly out of kilter and clearly that would freak McGovern out. He wants everything to look as ‘HE’ has envisioned it, stuff history or icons. Merc on the other hand clearly understood the recent renaissance in things that are bespoke/artisan/unique/original/authentic and kept their Icon going at all costs:


Click image to enlarge
 Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

Post #819227 12th Mar 2020 8:25am
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PCM



Member Since: 25 Jan 2019
Location: North East
Posts: 438

United Kingdom 

Genadier. Great post and a beauty of a real defender in the last shot.
Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

Post #819363 12th Mar 2020 11:16pm
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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 753

United Kingdom 

I'm a simple guy - Mrs Puddle says I'm very simple, and this is a genuine question for anyone who actually knows the economics of car manufacturing:
If Suzuki can build a small, simple 4x4 for less than £20,000 and make a profit (building it in Japan, not Slovakia), why can't LR? It's a serious question. Why can't LR make a 4x4 (let's call it the DC100) for £25,000 and not make a profit on it? If they can, why haven't they done it? UK population is growing at 1,200 a day (8,400 people a week). Think about it...because no one is.

Post #819465 13th Mar 2020 7:21pm
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lohr500



Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 711

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

I would love to know the answer as well.

I suspect it is because they are so stuck up their own a**** that they think a higher volume, lower priced vehicle will dilute their brand value and rob sales from their overpriced designer boutique models.
And their dealer network wouldn't like it because they have become addicted to charging a king's ransom for a basic service, rather than a sensible amount for what amounts to an oil and filter change.

I keep banging on about it, but even my fully loaded 5 door Jeep Wrangler Rubicon looks a bargain compared to a new 110 Defender. In a stock trim showdown, I'd put my money on it outperforming the Defender in most real life off-road conditions, apart from headline towing weight capacity.

Post #819468 13th Mar 2020 7:47pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 7090

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Simple answer is they have limited capital and limited resources ~ they've prioritised what they think will make most profit, not per vehicle, but in total and this is aligned to their move to become a "premium" brand.

It's not helped that plans for more models have been postponed as those that have come on line have not sold the volume forecast and thus there's not the capital in the business to move through the product portfolio. Don't forget that they spent to create the infrastructure and employed a large number of staff to be able to produce 1 million vehicles per annum. Those capex items are now quite a drag on the finances of the business as they're producing below 500k per annum.

Post #819469 13th Mar 2020 7:49pm
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DSC-off



Member Since: 16 Oct 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 688

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green

Simple answer is they have limited capital and limited resources ~ they've prioritised what they think will make most profit, not per vehicle, but in total and this is aligned to their move to become a "premium" brand.

^ Exactly this.

Back in 2015 it was possible to buy a basic Defender for around £20k+vat. That was the old, inefficient, labour intensive design that was oh so expensive to make. There's no reason why an equally basic, modern, efficient design can't be built for the same cost today, plus a bit for inflation.

Also back in early 2014 a base model Freelander (2wd) could be bought for £22k. Had this still been an option in late 2015, I would have bought one. However, by then the Freelander3 (aka Discovery Sport) had been launched with a starting price of £31k, or a 40% increase!

With the new Defender prices being around 100% more than the model it supposedly replaced, the primary reason is maximised profit. Nobody would would accept a 100% increase in the price of a Ford Fiesta or VW Golf, but LR seem to get away with it.

Post #819528 13th Mar 2020 11:35pm
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ZeDefender



Member Since: 15 Sep 2011
Location: Munich
Posts: 4730

Germany 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Baltic Blue

At least the obscene price of the new "jelly mold" gives me a solid excuse to keep paying out to repair mine Thumbs Up Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing...

Post #819537 14th Mar 2020 7:11am
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What puddle?



Member Since: 25 Oct 2013
Location: Reading
Posts: 753

United Kingdom 

Thanks for the replies. I'm very much hoping that Jim Ratcliffe will go for a small initial profit to keep the price down while the brand builds.
For me, the new Defender is absolutely absurd (too plastic and dull), and the price equally so. The new Bronco looks ok, I guess, but is a bit too American. The Wrangler is something I would have bought, but the price is just too high. So I'm left with (possibly) Toyota's hinted 4x4, or the Grenadier. The Grenadier appeals much more as a real 4x4, but the price is going to be the key. If it's more than £30,000 then it will have to look and be great to justify that. I'm guessing it's going to be £35,000 and that's ok as long as it ticks all the boxes.
They have already managed to p*ss me off a little, as I entered their competition for a suitable name. I poured in so many names - I even surprised myself how good they were, seriously (they just kept coming to me). So all they have to do now is over-price it and I'm gone. UK population is growing at 1,200 a day (8,400 people a week). Think about it...because no one is.

Post #819559 14th Mar 2020 10:13am
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DSC-off



Member Since: 16 Oct 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 688

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green

Your thoughts, budget and vehicle options are very similar to mine. Very Happy

Perhaps Ineos will look to expand the brand if the Grenadier is successful. A smaller utility 4x4 to sell in bigger volumes would be the logical next model. Thumbs Up

Post #819562 14th Mar 2020 10:31am
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