 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Air box mod help please. |
 
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| newhue Member Since: 28 Apr 2014 Location: Brisbane Posts: 351  
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If your going to be fording water bonnet heigh I'd be siliconing up the duck bill drain. It's a good idea but rarely seems to seal correctly and goes hard in a relatively short time.
To be honest with the factory raised air intake head I'd imagine very little water makes its way int the pipe work system let alone the to air box. But given the standard engine bay pipe work is a leaking disaster, if you were to cross water as high as the air box, or drive slowly on a dusty track then you would be in trouble. In some ways I can't see what there is to be gained by throwing water or dust to the side of the air box, I guess so the water can trickle to the duck bill, but really, the dust just keeps going to the filter. Even then I'd imagine at least 1/4 of a cup would be required before having enough density to be thrown to the side of the air box then trickle down to the duck bill. If its just vapour I'd imagine very little difference would be made on its way to the air filter. And if you have swamped it, well your done anyway, no hi clone will save a flood. Weather it was/is a Common rail fad, who can say. Perhaps with these motors being so fickle to contaminants, any particle separation is welcomed along the way. All I know I do a fuel and air filter every 20K. My Defender and travels |
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28th Apr 2015 9:32am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 17788  
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Landrover has always fitted a cyclonic centrifugal separator/precleaner of some kind, and its purpose is to separate wetness and heavier particulates from the incoming airflow.
I would be loathe to operate a Defender (or any other Landrover) in the conditions in which it is designed to be capable of operating without one, but many - possibly the majority - of defenders now never get anywherte near those conditions. RAIs generally have some kind of precleaner at the intake, at least those designed for arduous conditions do. If you have one of these, you can probably remove the centrifugal seperator from the airbox without qualms. In Series 1 days, the precleaner was a cone shaped device on the inlet to the main air filter. From S2 until the demise of the oil-filled air cleaner, it was integral with the top of the cleaner. Since then, there has always been some kind of cyclonic plastic gismo at some stage in the intake duct. |
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28th Apr 2015 11:39am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20844
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It'll still go through though what ever, it may hit it but go around it and still in.
I've noticed no more debris in the bottom of the airbox since doing it than before. But in severely dusty environments then every little helps but as its not a pre filter anyway in my opinion it just acts as an obstruction and that's all. The filter is the only thing that truly filters out rubbish. |
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28th Apr 2015 11:44am |
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610 
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Obstruction it may be but an obstruction with an important job to do! Water separation is it's primary function is it not as explained by Blackwolf? As mentioned previously it encourages the water to collect on the walls of the airbox and drain naturally the air moving on. It is not a 'debris filter' and as such you will not see more 'debris' as water either drains or hopefully evaporates. Nothing too large in the way of debris should get that far as the external wing grill has smaller apertures than that of the cyclonic water separator. Have a look immediately after or during a run when it's raining cats and dogs if you've the time and or inclination and look for water ingress and/or a damp filter. A damp or wet filter will seriously affect airflow.
 If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!
Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! |
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28th Apr 2015 11:58am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20844
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How do Snorkels / RAI's come if when everything is sealed completely even the drain hole?
Surely it's like a drain then with out anywhere to go especially with the ram effect of the snorkel intake. Though don't they have a separator at the top? All the same I've had no issues with mine at all and it's been done for a while. Driven in all weathers. It has been proven that a Snorkel adds more restriction but why? It must be the double rain separators in the system that cause that? |
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28th Apr 2015 12:43pm |
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610
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Some snorkels/RAIs do indeed separate water at the top. Lesser of two evils. If you fit a snorkel with the associated breathers with the intention of wading of course you'd seal everything. A little water ingress is better than lots coming up the other direction through the drain holes I would imagine? I have a snorkel but no breathers and the cyclonic separator left well alone, why? Because I have no intention of wading and think the cyclone a good thing. No water is better still than a little. It is down to personal choice and that is the reasoning behind you carrying out the removal. Restrictive airflow with the fitment of a snorkel can be offset by other means such as cat removal, different air filter and of course exhaust upgrade surely? The removal of the separator is a bit of a one way street in my opinion but am willing to be proved wrong. If I ever intended to wade I'd do it like a shot as there would be absolutely nothing to lose as you mentioned the water would have nowhere to go anyway.
If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!
Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! Last edited by K9F on 28th Apr 2015 1:03pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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28th Apr 2015 12:56pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Not sure how a cat removal will help the intake side unless there is no restriction, relatively speaking, already.
It's a diesel engine so never going to rev to 8k and never going to need the free flowing intake such an engine needs. |
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28th Apr 2015 1:01pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 20844
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Mal - Surely if you have the Snorkel separator then there is less to worry about anyway?
You could always test it as you don't have to cut out the bottom of the airbox to get the separator out. Most including myself just do that as a matter of course. You can get it out with out damage and you can fit it again if need be. But it is a bit of a pain to get at. It's only the bottom of the airbox cutting that you cannot reverse. |
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28th Apr 2015 1:12pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436  
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Supacat,
a 2.4 diesel engine at max rpm 4200 uses 15 120liters/min a 4.2 liter petrol engine at 7000 rpm 11760 liters/min a 4.2 liter diesel engine at 4000 rpm 25200 liters/min Compression ratio and turbo/non turbo also playing a rol in the calculation/needs I used to have water marks in the airbox with the OEM setup, these are gone since putting the direct hose and sealing the drain holes. My Mantec RAI (opened up mushroom) does not let water in. The watermarks were the result of all the joints and drain holes in the oem ducting and airbox to my opinion. (especially splash water when driving "waterlogged" unpaved roads caused these marks, normal road driving not) custom90steve it is especially cutting out the part where the separator sits that opens up the piping diameter from 70 to around 100mm and brings the benefit. |
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28th Apr 2015 1:45pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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How you making those sums? It's obviously more than a simple displacement calcl, but I had a fact in my head that the old 2.4 L V8 Formula engines - 650 liters per second (23ft@3) at 19000RPM.
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28th Apr 2015 2:09pm |
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610
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Steve,
Whilst the Mantec RAI does have a water separator top, the Safari doesn't I believe do water separation? Not really sure? If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!! Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! |
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28th Apr 2015 2:53pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436
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Online calculators, such as http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/CFM.html
now your 650l/sec = 39000 l/min this calculator returns only 18240l/min for a stock petrol engine, but do you know the compression ratio? Google tells me F1 engines are at 17:1 typical petrol non turbo 8:1 engine = 18240 l/min at compression of 17:1 = 38760 l/min close enough for me The same diesel engine with turbo would need 68400 l/min (at 19000rpm  )
So i guess we are right |
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28th Apr 2015 3:04pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6341  
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thought I'd through a spanner in the works......
a friend of the family who works for JLR (his speciality being fluid mechanics - I think) suggested to me the fan is there to smooth out the air and help the air distribute across the filter better ?? no idea how familiar he is / was with the defender and whether his comment is more generic? my only thoughts with this separator idea is that I can't imagine the air speed / cyclone effect being sufficiently quick enough to do any separating and as such the smoothing of air flow makes more sense to me ? |
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14th May 2015 11:54am |
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| munch90 Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: guildford Posts: 3558
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its to help separate out water and dust from the air flow
if you look at the design of the airbox the fan bit is inside a tube with a smaller end so any water thrown out of air is caught and drained out the drain in the tube |
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14th May 2015 1:05pm |
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