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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 13165

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

No doubt I will regret asking this, but are you taking issue with my comparison of £30k Disco 2 with an £80k new Defender, or my comarison of a £30k Disco 2 with a £50k Grenadier? Or did you simply misread my post and think I am saying that the Defender and Grenadier are functionally equivalent?*

If the former, perhaps you would like to tell me what useful additional functionality the Defender has that the Disco 2 lacks?

If the latter, perhaps you'd like to tell me what useful functionality the Disco 2 has that the Grenadier lacks?



* I haven't said this, since I know that the Defender has a lot of unnecessary and to me undesirable crap that the Grenadier doesn't.

Post #907392 11th Jun 2021 12:23pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 336

United Kingdom 

blackwolf wrote:
From what I have seen, the Grenadier is likely to provide functional equivalence at a significantly lower price than an £80k Defender


Ultimately depends on how narrow your definition of “functional” is. If it’s a 4WD car with some ground clearance, 5/7 seats, a bit of space in the back and the ability to tow 3.5t, that’s quite restrictive - and there are lots of crude, unpleasant old clankers that are “functionally equivalent”.

What I can tell you is that the breadth of ability a new Defender has is an awful lot wider than that of an old Discovery, and the fundamental part of that is because it doesn’t have entirely outmoded underpinnings. Which the Grenadire does.

Post #907394 11th Jun 2021 12:42pm
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Retroanaconda



Member Since: 04 Jan 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1964

Scotland 

I’m not sure it’s a clear cut as that. Yes the solid beam axles are old tech but they are still used in commercial/utility applications around the world as they have a number of advantages in those applications.

The new Defender is primarily a passenger-carrying car not a utility vehicle and so it makes sense for it to have independent suspension. The Disco 2 had beam axles as a development of the D1/RRC platform but no one would argue that the comfort and handling improved when the D3 went to an independently-sprung setup.

Blackwolf: It must have been a very highly-specced D2 to need to spend £80k to get an L663 to the same level? Mine is a base spec model and has all the toys I could ever envisage wanting.

Post #907395 11th Jun 2021 12:58pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 2981

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

The one thing the outmoded underpinnings may provide, that JLR products do not, is durability in arduous use. Granted there is likely a very small market willing to pay a high price for that, but that is what Ineos are counting on. They aren’t going for big sales figures. The Land Rover’s complex suspension and terrain response is awesome, I don’t think anyone disagrees with that, but is not well suited to heavy duty applications. I’m not saying you cant use a new Defender for that, but that over time a simpler more robust vehicle would be the better choice, especially or a fleet, even if technically it is not as competent.

This car is trying to rival the 70 series Land Cruiser and Merc G-professional with some crossover with Nissan Patrol, Land Cruiser 300, Mitsubishi Challenger, G-professional! double cab pick ups etc, not the new Defender. I don’t even think Grenadier is much of a rival for Wranglers and Broncos, as they are more aimed at the fun/ leisure market. Personally it is these rivalries that interest me and I think Ineos have their work cut out still.

The keep arguing whether is technically compariable/superior to the new Defender seems pointless to me. Different tools for different jobs. Might as well say it doesn’t handle as well as a McLaren Senna, or can’t match the fuel consumption of Prius. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #907396 11th Jun 2021 1:01pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 336

United Kingdom 

Solid axles are used in commercial vehicles because it’s an awful lot simpler (read an awful lot cheaper) to make one work carrying heavier loads, and all driving dynamics are secondary to that.

Post #907397 11th Jun 2021 1:03pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 336

United Kingdom 

As for simplicity - those BMW engines and ZF gearboxes are about as far from simple as it’s possible for a powertrain to get in 2021.

Post #907398 11th Jun 2021 1:06pm
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22900013A



Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 2884

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

Philip wrote:
Functional equivalence? Only in the most very basic sense, it simply can’t have the breath of abilities that a new Defender has when it’s on the underpinnings of a 1960s army truck. There are good reasons new-fangled ideas like independent suspension and steering racks have become ubiquitous.


Out of curiosity what 1960s army truck are you referring to? I thought the Grenadier was all-new? 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

Post #907399 11th Jun 2021 1:08pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 336

United Kingdom 

All-new insomuch as anything with a separate chassis, two solid axles and a steering box can be.

Post #907400 11th Jun 2021 1:12pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 9923

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

blackwolf wrote:
What I do welcome is the widening of choice for the buyer

This in spades, I struggle to understand how this can be deemed a negative.

Talking of outmoded underpinnings, the new Defender should have been the first vehicle on the MLA platform (as should have all JLR offerings from 2020 onwards); instead it had a warmed over version of the D7. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are going to knock something based on age alone, then let's not pretend it's cutting edge in today's market.

Post #907406 11th Jun 2021 1:32pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 2981

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

Philip wrote:
As for simplicity - those BMW engines and ZF gearboxes are about as far from simple as it’s possible for a powertrain to get in 2021.


I agree, and think the choice of engine and gearbox is the thing I like the least. Although at least it’s not a DSG. This vehicle does not need 250bhp+. A more utilitarian 4 cylinder option would have been nice with a 6 speed manual box. Even the big V8 diesel in the Land Cruiser can’t muster more than 200bhp, presumably for durability reasons. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #907407 11th Jun 2021 1:39pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 13165

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Philip wrote:
Solid axles are used in commercial vehicles because it’s an awful lot simpler (read an awful lot cheaper) to make one work carrying heavier loads, and all driving dynamics are secondary to that.


Hmm, benefits - simpler, cheaper, fewer parts to wear out or fail. Disbenefits = poorer driving dynamics.

On a multipurpose vehicle not intended for performance road use, I know which I would rather have.

I have never found the road manners of either my Disco2 or my Defender in any way unsatisfactory, and both are on MTs.

Post #907410 11th Jun 2021 2:01pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 2981

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

I think the solid axle is cheaper point is only applicable at the bottom of the market with leaf springs like on the rear of pickups. When you get into 5 link designs with coil springs like Grenadier will have there’s probably not much in it. There’s certainly more actual material in a solid axle set up. I don’t think cost is the driving factor in Ineos’ design choices.

Separate chassis is also not an obsolete choice for the intended market. With a unibody, the ability to customise and adapt becomes very limited and makes offering different body configurations harder. Look at all the specials that were built on Classic Defender chassis that just wouldn’t be possible on unibody design.

Of course, both of those bring compromises which aren’t desirable in a mass market vehicle, but that’s not what the Grenadier is. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #907412 11th Jun 2021 2:14pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 336

United Kingdom 

Solid axles are far cheaper in terms of both development and construction - given that, it should be telling that everything (including the US stuff) is moving to independent. Looking at the construction pictures of the Grenadier’s body, I’m also not sure it’s going to lend itself to custom rebodies like an old Defender or a cheapo pickup would. Has there been mention of a chassis cab?

Post #907415 11th Jun 2021 2:26pm
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