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Projectblue



Member Since: 22 Nov 2011
Location: Devon
Posts: 1096

England 
What I find interesting is the demographics of the people talking about each side.

On one side it's mostly slightly older people with slightly right towards hard right leaning. On the other it's younger people, who are liberal or slightly left. Yes it is a generalisation, but it's probably 60-75% accurate, which is a damn sight more accurate than most of the tosh being bandied about by papers.

My biggest worry is that this is not a vote for me. For what I want. It is a vote for the children of the future. What kind of world do you want your children or grand children to grow up in. So I thought about that and I thought about the Countries of the EU worrying about us leaving and I had that same feeling of 'ha! you are worried the cash cow is going and the resultant fallout'.

And then I looked at who stood to gain. Who are the people pushing or supporting an exit. And supporters of us exiting are Putin, Kim Jun and Trump plus the right wing media billionaires who don't live in the UK. What does that say to you? Ok, it might say that these independent, free thinking, free spirited individuals are all rooting for us to go it alone. To throw off our shackles and rise back to the top where we belong.

Or it could be that the NUTTERS of the WORLD want us to leave. Think about that when you are weighing it up. I am at this time still undecided, but that last fact haunts me. The craziest people in power or about to gain power want us on our own. Why? It's not so we are undefended, we will still be in NATO. So what is it? Why is it a good thing for THEM?
That's what is going to keep me awake at night before I vote. New project and it's green: www.projectoverland.info
Post #538972 9th Jun 2016 11:27pm
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TonyF



Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 61

Australia 2004 Defender 90 Td5 SW Bonatti Grey
Well, I haven't seen any posts yet from outside of Europe. When Britain entered the Common Market, your ex-colonies such as Australia and New Zealand suffered from loss of our biggest market. If we were smart, we recognised the benefit for UK financially but more importantly the benefit to world stability of a strong, unified Europe. There have been some poor outcomes, the common-currency Eurozone being one, the size of the EC bureaucracy being another. But 60 years of general peace in the region has been a tremendous result, as well as the influence of a strong Europe in balancing the power of the US and the Eastern bloc internationally.

It's been alot of hard work and pain to get where the EU is now. To contemplate throwing it away now I think is gutless. Identify what is wrong with the system and fix it. That's a terrific challenge but in times of global uncertainties around migration and climate change, a unified European is still an imperative for global survival of ethical society.
Post #538987 10th Jun 2016 5:14am
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ROBBONTHEROCK



Member Since: 23 Jun 2014
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 637

Scotland 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Firenze Red
Projectblue wrote:


Or it could be that the NUTTERS of the WORLD want us to leave. Think about that when you are weighing it up. I am at this time still undecided, but that last fact haunts me. The craziest people in power or about to gain power want us on our own. Why? It's not so we are undefended, we will still be in NATO. So what is it? Why is it a good thing for THEM?
That's what is going to keep me awake at night before I vote.


Agreed, this is what worries me as well.

Cheers
Andy
Post #538991 10th Jun 2016 6:24am
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gabe3105



Member Since: 25 May 2015
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 237

United Kingdom 
I think its all a matter of perspective - I've not seen one argument yet from either side that can't be flipped and used as an argument for the other side too. eg. If crazy Trump wants us to leave (I may be mistaken but I don't think Putin or Kim have expressed an opinion either way) then we better stay. An alternative perspective would be if all the senior "Eton set" politicians, senior business and banking leaders (people who have made multi-millions over the past 20 years) are desperate for us to stay, its probably because they are afraid they will lose their ability to milk further millions from the system, and so we better leave.

Ultimately we'll all have to decide based on our own individual circumstances and our approach to risk, and probably, in the absence of indisputable facts, on our "gut" feeling, and hope that whatever happens it all turns out ok in the end!
Post #539027 10th Jun 2016 9:22am
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JJ



Member Since: 18 May 2009
Location: Winchester
Posts: 932

United Kingdom 1987 Defender 110 V8 Petrol CSW Corris Grey
I have a big concern that in the event of an exit from the EU are our current or future politicians competent enough to negotiate trade deals and the evidence suggests not.

I think we will end up with Monsanto sponsoring Wimbledon with genetically modified grass,Bayer CropScience Ltd using neonicotinoids as a brand to sponsor a honey commercial and anything else the Chinese would like to sell us just so that a few top directors get a good pay day.

At the moment the only reason a trade deal hasn't been struck with the US is because Europe says no to these things.

Free trade is great idea but not a free for all that damages the environment just for profit. HR064 Hampshire and Berkshire 4x4 Response
Post #539034 10th Jun 2016 10:25am
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languedoc



Member Since: 13 May 2016
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 283

Scotland 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alaska White
I'm always a little concerned when any argument, both in and out, mention the Eton Set.

Is attendance at a good school cause for concern?

Not sure if Churchill going to Harrow is often brought up as a character flaw?

Bear in mind, they only go to private senior school for 5 years, they will have been at the private prep school longer. Should we lambast them as well?

Are other Eton/Harrow ex pupils in other parts of life also considered untrustworthy?
Post #539036 10th Jun 2016 10:41am
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gabe3105



Member Since: 25 May 2015
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 237

United Kingdom 
Generalisations are always dangerous, of course - I was using a hypothetical argument to make a point about how perspective can be used to shape arguments for or against.

However it is no secret that most jobs in powerful positions within society are more easily achieved when someone has a privileged upbringing. Considering the scandals we have had in recent years involving senior police officers, politicians, bankers and business leaders, the link is not so tenuous - to ignore it is naïve
Post #539042 10th Jun 2016 10:51am
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languedoc



Member Since: 13 May 2016
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 283

Scotland 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alaska White
I agree that a potentially more thorough and rounded education helps employment prospects however, I can assure you that the nepotistic old boys network died a long time ago.
Post #539046 10th Jun 2016 10:56am
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5893

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey
Agreed Languedoc. Or alternatively, other 'sets' have jumped on the nepotistic bandwagon. For example Union Leaders or the wonderful John Prescott being made a Lord, but for what exactly? As far as milking Millions from the system Gabe, it's not exclusive to ex-Public school educated people that do so. A recent study showed that there are 500,000 troublesome families in the UK that cost the taxpayers £30bn a year.

And what of PPI? My personal bug bear. Yes some were miss-sold, yes some compensation was due. But the vast majority of people (sensibly) took PPI to pay off their loan or mortgage if they were sacked or fell ill. What's more, the gluttonous UK public who bought everything on debt (unlike the French) were more than willing to take loans they couldn't afford, so that they could by the new TV, car or kitchen they didn't need. And did they read the small print? Nope. Let's sign the contract as quickly as possible and get out of here in case the bank changes their mind. And wwas their form filling and levels of income and outgoings always honest? Not by a long shot. And now the great British public is claiming it all back. £20bn so far to 10 million customers. So, apparently, fifty percent of the adult population were fooled into buying PPI. Ahem.

On the flip side, don't forget that whilst the media attack banker's for their bonuses, they forget that relative to what they make the institution in the first place their percentage bonuses are no different to many normal jobs, they just do so at a higher level. And as for the banks themselves, it must not be forgotten that Lloyds buying HBOS was a political decision. They'd turned it down a couple of years before. It was a face-safer for Brown and went tits-up. Nothing to do with 'greed' of Lloyds employees. Just media spin.

So all in all, milking the system has nothing to do with class, privilege, upbringing etc. Some people do, some people don't and it's been going on years. There are as many Public School educated honest sorts who pay taxes and work until they pop their clogs (like me) as their are working class, salts of the earth who do the same (like my best mate out here) and everything in between.

Don't believe the spin... Thumbs Up Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey
Post #539055 10th Jun 2016 11:23am
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languedoc



Member Since: 13 May 2016
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 283

Scotland 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alaska White
Bow down
Post #539058 10th Jun 2016 11:35am
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gabe3105



Member Since: 25 May 2015
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 237

United Kingdom 
I quite agree that there are bad and good sorts in every walk of life, I wasn't suggesting there are a greater proportion of them in higher class echelons of society - its just that they probably have a greater opportunity in more powerful positions to take advantage of it and it is highlighted more when it happens Very Happy

At the risk of going off topic, you'll never get my agreement re bankers bonuses though! The whole incentive system in banks is wrong - we'll pay you loads for being ultra-aggressive risk takers and when it works, you'll get mega rich, and when it fails the economy will go down the pan but you'll still get to keep all your bonuses from previous years. Whistle

Most of my views on life are from experience rather than media spin Thumbs Up
Post #539059 10th Jun 2016 11:37am
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languedoc



Member Since: 13 May 2016
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 283

Scotland 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alaska White
In my first property job I worked for a solicitor estate agency as their buying negotiator. In my team was the paralegal dept that was passed work by the council for right to buy clients.

The VAST majority of council tenants, when buying their discounted home, would openly apply for home improvement top up on the mortgage and not spend it on their asset but on motorbikes or holidays etc. Nobody blamed them but, instead blamed the easy lending. I never saw guns held to their head.

My own role was principally advising first time buyers, the majority coming from Standard Life employees, who would base their buying price on the 125% northern rock offering. Again, despite me advising to never over reach, the general consensus was that they wanted it so just sign for it.

That has a huge affect on their financial prospects.

Not one MP or public school boy in sight.

But they got the blame when the inevitable happened.

And as an ex public school boy, I was telling them not to!
Post #539064 10th Jun 2016 11:47am
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gabe3105



Member Since: 25 May 2015
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 237

United Kingdom 
We've somehow drifted onto a public v state school debate Exclamation My daughter until recently went private, so I have no axe to grind with private schools or their pupils Thumbs Up

Offering lots of money to people who don't earn much and so cannot repay relied too much on the financial sense of the borrowers to say no, so it was always going to end badly as more often than not they would say yes. The real blame lies with the (well educated?) senior managers/directors of the financial institutions who put these lending strategies in place to make as much money as they could without thinking about long term consequences of people's inability to pay.

Now this is really off topic, apologies to the OP! Embarassed
Post #539065 10th Jun 2016 11:59am
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custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20922

United Kingdom 
There's more to the referendum than just money too, remember, it is part of it but not the sole purpose to our existence.

Money couldn't stop Hitler back in WW2 from invading right across Europe.

It was no good relying on France, Germany etc back then for us in GB.

Do we really want to loose our identity completely?

The majority of 'in' people I've came across are only that way inclined due to "project fear".
Or have personal financial vested interests themselves.
Take Cameron for example....

There is even Labour Party members with the same vested interests too, so it's not all biased.
And where private school comes into it I do not know, it has nothing to do with it.

I've got every respect for anyone, if they got nothing or millions so long as they have the humanity to respect me and their fellow man.
Sadly, every year that surpasses it seems to decrease and decrease in respect for one another.
Myself at 24 years of age with all this segregation and bracketisation, on age, gender, income etc. I really really do fear for the future.
One thing for sure in my personal opinion this spiral started in 2010 onwards big time, and gets worse and worse every year.


Last edited by custom90 on 10th Jun 2016 1:55pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #539084 10th Jun 2016 1:12pm
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gilarion



Member Since: 05 Dec 2013
Location: Wales
Posts: 5132

Wales 2007 Defender 90 Other CSW Trident Green
A little off topic to my opening thread but: Having watched the referendum debate on TV last night does

NICOLA STURGEON ever shut up!

Jesus her mouth and vocal chords must be worn out. I am not even sure she even pauses for breath. How can one of such little stature make so much noise. Her loud mouthed personal attacks made the debate a mockery. For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at..

http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1
Post #539105 10th Jun 2016 1:42pm
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