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Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5893

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

My issue with the referendum is the 'yes or no' option for voters. Given the importance of the outcome I think it is a far too simplified question. Am I happy with Europe, no, not by a long shot? But do I think we should just stay or leave, impossible to answer that question with just a yes or no.

So what's wrong with the EU, in my opinion? Bloated hierarchy, misuse of subsidies, inclusion of countries that simply bring nothing to the table - Romania, Albania etc - which we, the big five countries, will just support financially, over-influence from Europe on internal legislation, inefficiency at the top table, too many non-elected career politicians trying to create a super state against all logic. It's all well and good adding more and more countries to be able to claim that Europe has a marketplace with populations that compare with the US, India and China, but by doing so you are ignoring the fact that beyond the established members (Germany, France, UK etc) most of the new states cost us more than they provide and do not actually improve EU GDP or increase the market, at least not to a degree to make their inclusion worthwhile? Not wishing to target Albania, but what trade will they really do with the EU, let alone the US and China etc? Further, I think the effects of reduced security on the combined borders are obvious. By all means fifer them Shengen trade agreements, but the constant desire to make the EU ever bigger is just wrong.

But I also love its benefits as I see them. Peace, trade, a sense of community and friendship, opportunity to move, travel and work freely etc, from which I (obviously) benefit. Fairer work laws and conditions, etc etc.

So in my opinion there's much to admire about Europe, but much that needs to be changed or improved. Does the UK benefit, absolutely. Does it also lose out, almost certainly. We are the second or third biggest provider to the EU, at the same time in deficit, but we are under powered and represented at the top table because we have always been suspicious of our Continental cousins and they of us because we didn't join at the time of first asking.

So we have a case of better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Personally, unless Europe has a strop and bars us from all trade agreements, I genuinely believe we can make a perfectly good fist of it if we go it alone. But why the upheaval and risk? However, whilst it make sense to stay in, I don't feel it should be as it is currently, just maintaining the status quo. Things need to change and here's the rub and the kernel in my first point at the top of the post. An option on the ballot form, in or out, is too simplified. There should be a third question. And option to Stay In, but apply for further changes to benefit the UK, if non are forthcoming within five years the option to have a second referendum. With just yes or no, with the ebb and flow of opinion amongst voters dependent on who says or does what in the media, on one etc, and we could tip into one camp or another at the point the votes are cast. The following week and it might be the opposite opinion. Way too risky.

So there we are. I'm in, but understand out. I don't believe out is as bad as people make out, but also feel that whilst it's easier to stay in, things need to change. Many things. So why were we not given that as an option?

Voila....let's hear your answers....

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

8th Jun 2016 9:06am

defender4

Member Since: 22 Jun 2011
Location: South East London
Posts: 411

2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

It is more than unfortunate that we are having a referendum at all let alone the possibility of rolling 5 year referenda that you (almost) raise. One of the most unfortunate consequences of holding the referendum is that it has rejuvenated and legitimised the xenophobic tendency that has lain dormant in this country for some time. The other group that has been given its day in the sun is made up of a number of politicians who are ambitious beyond their abilities.

I agree with a number of the criticisms of the EU that you mention and therefore the only benefit that I can see coming out of this referendum is that it shakes up the EU elite into serious reform and that the UK could get the opportunity to accelerate improvements from inside the tent. This will lead to accusations of complacency but the point is that the UK has never really been a fully engaged member of the EU but will, after a Remain vote, have that opportunity. Whether we take the opportunity or not will, unfortunately, depend on the political skills of our so called leaders.

8th Jun 2016 9:59am

Lost for Words

Member Since: 18 Jun 2015
Location: Warminster, Wiltshire
Posts: 200

As a country, I think we have long had, if anthing, a relatively xenophilic tendency throughout history. We've long welcomed cultures from around the world. We've been invaded by people from around Europe, we've sailed the seas to find and trade with different peoples, we've stood against racism when it was in full swing in the US. We've been there, done that, so when politicians come out to preach multiculturalism to the British, it is really teaching your grandmother to suck eggs.

This is a great place for people of any race and nationality, and what is truly damaging is to lose sight of that, misjudge sound and fair reasonings and label them as xenophobia.

Grenadier wrote:
My issue with the referendum is the 'yes or no' option for voters. Given the importance of the outcome I think it is a far too simplified question. Am I happy with Europe, no, not by a long shot? But do I think we should just stay or leave, impossible to answer that question with just a yes or no.

.......

So there we are. I'm in, but understand out. I don't believe out is as bad as people make out, but also feel that whilst it's easier to stay in, things need to change. Many things. So why were we not given that as an option?

A valid point, but, the EU new the referendum was coming and negotiations have taken place. Now, if ever there was a time for significant change to be forthcomming, surely it would be now, and yet, no. We get a few measly statements that aren't even legally binding. What does that say about how confident they are of their position?

I think the EU has had its chance and clearly demonstrated that it isn't willing or able to change. Let's face it, a high level of discontent with the EU has been around for a very long time already. Personally, I feel that if we even have to ask ourselves the question of whether it will change, it goes to show that the situation is unacceptable. Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK
Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver

8th Jun 2016 10:21am

Rickydodah

Member Since: 14 Jul 2014
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 1091

Grenadier wrote:
My issue with the referendum is the 'yes or no' option for voters. Given the importance of the outcome I think it is a far too simplified question. Am I happy with Europe, no, not by a long shot? But do I think we should just stay or leave, impossible to answer that question with just a yes or no.

So what's wrong with the EU, in my opinion? Bloated hierarchy, misuse of subsidies, inclusion of countries that simply bring nothing to the table - Romania, Albania etc - which we, the big five countries, will just support financially, over-influence from Europe on internal legislation, inefficiency at the top table, too many non-elected career politicians trying to create a super state against all logic. It's all well and good adding more and more countries to be able to claim that Europe has a marketplace with populations that compare with the US, India and China, but by doing so you are ignoring the fact that beyond the established members (Germany, France, UK etc) most of the new states cost us more than they provide and do not actually improve EU GDP or increase the market, at least not to a degree to make their inclusion worthwhile? Not wishing to target Albania, but what trade will they really do with the EU, let alone the US and China etc? Further, I think the effects of reduced security on the combined borders are obvious. By all means fifer them Shengen trade agreements, but the constant desire to make the EU ever bigger is just wrong.

But I also love its benefits as I see them. Peace, trade, a sense of community and friendship, opportunity to move, travel and work freely etc, from which I (obviously) benefit. Fairer work laws and conditions, etc etc.

So in my opinion there's much to admire about Europe, but much that needs to be changed or improved. Does the UK benefit, absolutely. Does it also lose out, almost certainly. We are the second or third biggest provider to the EU, at the same time in deficit, but we are under powered and represented at the top table because we have always been suspicious of our Continental cousins and they of us because we didn't join at the time of first asking.

So we have a case of better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Personally, unless Europe has a strop and bars us from all trade agreements, I genuinely believe we can make a perfectly good fist of it if we go it alone. But why the upheaval and risk? However, whilst it make sense to stay in, I don't feel it should be as it is currently, just maintaining the status quo. Things need to change and here's the rub and the kernel in my first point at the top of the post. An option on the ballot form, in or out, is too simplified. There should be a third question. And option to Stay In, but apply for further changes to benefit the UK, if non are forthcoming within five years the option to have a second referendum. With just yes or no, with the ebb and flow of opinion amongst voters dependent on who says or does what in the media, on one etc, and we could tip into one camp or another at the point the votes are cast. The following week and it might be the opposite opinion. Way too risky.

So there we are. I'm in, but understand out. I don't believe out is as bad as people make out, but also feel that whilst it's easier to stay in, things need to change. Many things. So why were we not given that as an option?

Voila....let's hear your answers....

I'm resolutely for leaving, but I'm not entirely happy with the 'yes or no' vote either. If we could cherry-pick what conditions to comply with (many other countries appear to get away with it) then I would vote to remain. However that will never happen. I believe if we leave and start again with a clean slate then overall things will improve as we add what conditions suit Britain primarily.

I started with nothing and still have most of it left!

8th Jun 2016 10:23am

mick

Member Since: 08 Feb 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2109

2010 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Rimini Red

I can agree with nearly all of these posts

I work for lots of different types of people job wise and there all sick to death of the EU from farmers to company owners and directors
We have a lot of shisters of our own without the EU lot coming in as well
Let's be out and have a fresh start

8th Jun 2016 7:49pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 20922

I've already voted out Mick.

8th Jun 2016 8:04pm

ericvv

Member Since: 02 Jun 2011
Location: Near the Jet d'Eau
Posts: 5816

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SVX Station Wagon Santorini Black

I like the poll as is held by The Little Valley Brewery, a pub in Leeds.... It is reported in our press here that this Leeds pub launched three differently flavored new beers, one called Out, one called IDK (I Don't Know) and one called In (or, is it Inn?

)
They encourage customers to order the beer of their conviction toward the Brexit vote and discuss the coming vote with other customers in the pub... And they promise to publish the sales percentages of each of their beers shortly before the actual vote takes place. Nice initiative.

Eric

You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o
https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I
https://vimeo.com/201482507
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw

8th Jun 2016 8:29pm

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5893

Eric, please don't show me photos of Ale in a pub when I have access to neither, it just isn't fair...

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

8th Jun 2016 8:54pm

leeds

Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8582

Eric, Little Valley Brewery is almost a next door neighbour to Mud UK. Maybe I should go and visit Mud more often?

Now my father was an economic migrant to the UK , whereas I am a full UK citizen living permanently in the UK.

Now I am no fan of Brussels and I believe the EU needs a lot of reform.

What I strongly object to is the misleading if not deliberate misinformation being given out by the political establishment, many who have private axes to grind/ambitions to follow.

One of the suggestions is that the UK could follow the Norwegian contract with the EU and still be able to trade freely with the EU.

First question does Norway contribute to the EU?

Simple answer is yes. Does the UK contribute to the EU, again simple answer is yes.

Now Norway has its own currency the Krone (NOK) the UK has British Pound(£) and the EU uses the Euro. Unfortunately the exchange rates are not constant with the NOK being at a 5 year low against the Euro and the £ is at about a 6 month low against the euro.

This complicates the financial figures and the different reports uses different accountancy measures.

Now the Norwegian net contribution per capita to the EU is about £96 per capita.

Now the British net contribution to the EU per capita is roughly the same as Norway, although another report suggests it might be £20 per capita more.

Now will the UK be significantly better off by having a Norwegian style trade agreement with the EU?

On the face of it NO.

Now a House of Commons library suggests that the UK net contribution per capita to the EU is £128, Norway £106 whereas Switzerland is £53

Now will UK politicians be able to get a deal like Switzerland? I would suggest Not.

So it is highly doubtful if the UK will be financially better off outside the EU

Brendan

8th Jun 2016 11:52pm

ericvv

Member Since: 02 Jun 2011
Location: Near the Jet d'Eau
Posts: 5816

Grenadier wrote:
Eric, please don't show me photos of Ale in a pub when I have access to neither, it just isn't fair...

Say what?

Mr. Le Grenadier, I have taken the liberty to simply google "Chamonix pub" and see what I got as a result.

YOU? YOU having no access to neither a pub, nor to an ale?

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Ending in beauty....

Click image to enlarge

Mr. Le Grenadier, living in Cham of all places and pretending to have no access to a pub or to an ale?

Euh, that is you in that picture holding that Peroni, right?

Did I go a bit

here?

Back on topic then...

Grenadier wrote:
So what's wrong with the EU, in my opinion? inclusion of countries that simply bring nothing to the table - Albania etc -

Think Albania accession to EU is not for tomorrow. Probably could take longer than Turkey, whose first application to access the EEC, predecessor of the EU, already was made on April 14. 1987.... And progress is what it is, well..., progress.

Eric

9th Jun 2016 2:56am

mick

Member Since: 08 Feb 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2109

Click image to enlarge
Makes good reading

9th Jun 2016 7:04am

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5893

ericvv wrote:
Grenadier wrote:
Eric, please don't show me photos of Ale in a pub when I have access to neither, it just isn't fair...

Say what?
Mr. Le Grenadier, I have taken the liberty to simply google "Chamonix pub" and see what I got as a result.
YOU? YOU having no access to neither a pub, nor to an ale?

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Ending in beauty....

Click image to enlarge

Mr. Le Grenadier, living in Cham of all places and pretending to have no access to a pub or to an ale?

Euh, that is you in that picture holding that Peroni, right?

Did I go a bit here? Back on topic then...

Grenadier wrote:
So what's wrong with the EU, in my opinion? inclusion of countries that simply bring nothing to the table - Albania etc -

Think Albania accession to EU is not for tomorrow. Probably could take longer than Turkey, whose first application to access the EEC, predecessor of the EU, already was made on April 14. 1987.... And progress is what it is, well..., progress.

Eric

Merci Eric, I have been to all of them, but sadly not one counts (despite their names) as a proper pub, nor serves real ale. Here's what I miss. The first two are of the pub I basically grew up in...

Click image to enlarge

These are some others I frequent when home:

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

And here's some real ale:

Click image to enlarge

You will note that none of the establishments and none of the beer selection remotely resembles what we have available here in Chamonix. Sadly

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

9th Jun 2016 7:48am

ericvv

Member Since: 02 Jun 2011
Location: Near the Jet d'Eau
Posts: 5816

There is something really wrong with those English beers. This here

Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o
https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I
https://vimeo.com/201482507
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw

9th Jun 2016 8:20am

Lost for Words

Member Since: 18 Jun 2015
Location: Warminster, Wiltshire
Posts: 200

leeds wrote:
Eric, Little Valley Brewery is almost a next door neighbour to Mud UK. Maybe I should go and visit Mud more often?

Now my father was an economic migrant to the UK , whereas I am a full UK citizen living permanently in the UK.

Now I am no fan of Brussels and I believe the EU needs a lot of reform.

What I strongly object to is the misleading if not deliberate misinformation being given out by the political establishment, many who have private axes to grind/ambitions to follow.

One of the suggestions is that the UK could follow the Norwegian contract with the EU and still be able to trade freely with the EU.

First question does Norway contribute to the EU?

Simple answer is yes. Does the UK contribute to the EU, again simple answer is yes.

Now Norway has its own currency the Krone (NOK) the UK has British Pound(£) and the EU uses the Euro. Unfortunately the exchange rates are not constant with the NOK being at a 5 year low against the Euro and the £ is at about a 6 month low against the euro.

This complicates the financial figures and the different reports uses different accountancy measures.

Now the Norwegian net contribution per capita to the EU is about £96 per capita.

Now the British net contribution to the EU per capita is roughly the same as Norway, although another report suggests it might be £20 per capita more.

Now will the UK be significantly better off by having a Norwegian style trade agreement with the EU?

On the face of it NO.

Now a House of Commons library suggests that the UK net contribution per capita to the EU is £128, Norway £106 whereas Switzerland is £53

Now will UK politicians be able to get a deal like Switzerland? I would suggest Not.

So it is highly doubtful if the UK will be financially better off outside the EU

Brendan

That's just a single option though, and IMO, not one we would want to take.

Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK
Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver

9th Jun 2016 9:11am

o4dn

Member Since: 08 Jan 2010
Location: South West
Posts: 588

2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Alaska White

ericvv wrote:
There is something really wrong with those English beers.

So true! Take the "London Pride" for example, how anyone could be proud of anything like this is beyond me...
Vote out and proper Belgian beers will be taxed more in the UK

â€œA Land Rover immobilized is a moral defeat for the driver and bad publicity for the vehicle, [â€¦] it's up to you to do justice to your Land Rover!â€ - Land Rover Driving Technique.
--
2009 2.4 Puma Defender 90 SW
1979 Land Rover Series 3 88"

9th Jun 2016 10:11am

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