 | Home > Td5 > NNN 10p maps |
 
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| MadTom Member Since: 10 Sep 2013 Location: Olomouc Posts: 576   
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NNN000120 for manual and NNN00130 for auto gearbox has different (older) hardware inside, compared to NNN500020 and NNN500250 for manual and NNN500030 for auto gearbox. Older hardware is simillar to MSB ECUs.
So you need to have the right map for the ECU. Using the not right map could lead to some strange faults, because internall diagnostics doesn't work correctly, but engine still runs. NNN500020 and NNN500250 have the same hardware. "Drobek" = The Small One - Discovery 2, "Blufínek" = The Blue Thing - Defender 130, and for me at least Ford Mondeo  |
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31st Jan 2024 1:31pm |
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| Craig772 Member Since: 23 May 2022 Location: Cannock, Staffordshire Posts: 73  
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I've been making notes on 10P v 15P and the different ECUs which I've added to from this discussion and shared below.
@MadTom Can I ask, is it your understanding that any of the manual newer NNN ECU's can be used in older vehicles with the appropriate map? So, I could say replace a NNN000120 with a NNN500250? Could I do it the other way around? Assume the automatic NNN ECU's follow the same principle. @Zimblewinder I have a year 2000 TD5 10P engine running a NNN000120. I was switched before I bought the vehicle and intend on a re-map. Be useful to know how you get on. - The 10P engine ECU (MSBxxxxxx) has a soldered in CPU chip and is not updatable (flashable) via ODB port. To update it the chip must be removed from the PCB. - The 15P ECU (NNNxxxxxx) is flashable via ODB port. - Newer NNN flashable ECUs are backwards compatible can be used with a 10P engine with the appropriate map. - Older MSBxxxxxx non flashable ECUs are not forward compatible and can not be used with a 15P engine. Manual NNN000120 NNN500020 NNN500250 Automatic NNN000130 NNN500030 10P engine compared to 15P: - Same bottom end - Different head - Different injectors - Different rockers - Different ECU https://www.instagram.com/roxi_defender90/ |
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31st Jan 2024 7:18pm |
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| Zimblewinder Member Since: 12 Jan 2019 Location: Geelong Posts: 31  
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Fantastic feedback!
Ive been talking to Matteo about his MSB to NNN conversion as NNN ecus are near unobtanium here in Australia. He said the msb type ecu requires a NNN000120 10p map and not a 5000XX map to upgrade it to NNN because the injector driver hardware is different. He also said discovery MSB's have a "control for the turbo modulator" (which is not a problem upgrading for a defender for some reason) but the defender MSB's don't have the said modulator so cannot be run on a discovery. Great for me because Disco MSB's are the most common ECU available (though manuals are nowhere as common as autos). I really don't understand all of this in detail but... there you go. I'd still love to hear about people running 130 specific maps. What should I be asking a tuner for? Do they think a 130 is the same as a 110 map wise or should a 130 map have some specific tweaks due to the extra mass and possible work objectives? Please post here about your 130 map experiences. thanks Dale |
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1st Feb 2024 8:02am |
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| diesel_jim Member Since: 13 Oct 2008 Location: hiding Posts: 6037 
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I remember Ian Boughn (IRB/Porny on here) telling me that the 130 base map had a different torque curve (due to its extra weight I guess)
I'm sure he said that he used those as a starting point. but was this for Puma? damn I can't remember!  |
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1st Feb 2024 8:17am |
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| Craig772 Member Since: 23 May 2022 Location: Cannock, Staffordshire Posts: 73
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@Zimblewinder
The MSBs were initially been fitted to a 10P engine. the NNN is backwards compatible for 10P but the engine would have different injectors than a 15P which the NNNs were fitted to. Makes sense that a NNN would need a 10P map specific to the NNN rather than an MSB map copied across. At least that's my take on it. I have a 10P engine with an NNN000120 and have a Nanocom on order so will be doing more learning on this. I hope to pick up another NNN, get it working as it should and keep it as a spare. There's a few on eBay here in the UK. https://www.instagram.com/roxi_defender90/ |
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1st Feb 2024 1:25pm |
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| TexasRover Member Since: 24 Nov 2022 Location: Paris Posts: 795  
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Is the ambient air temp pressure sensor in the air filter not different between the 19p and 15p. Different connector with extra wire on the 15p. That could account for some of the comfortability issues. But you can buy a sensor and run a wire. The injector difference might be more difficult to adjust for
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1st Feb 2024 1:46pm |
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| MadTom Member Since: 10 Sep 2013 Location: Olomouc Posts: 576
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MSB and NNN000120 and NNN000130 have nearly the same hardware inside - the "older" one. There are some small differences, but they have the same ICs used. NNN500020, NNN500030 and NNN500250 have two different (more modern) ICs for some output switching - like relay for A/C or A/C compressor clutch.
Circuits for injectors switching are the same. MSB ECU can be replaced witch NNN ECU with correct map inside. Map for older NNN ECU (like NNN000120) used in newer NNN ECU like NNN500020 will work, but different switch ICs results in nonexistent faults like switch overheat or short circuits. Switches are inteligent and can monitor lot of parameters, like short circuits, but with wrong map, this does not work correctly. Switches for injectors are based on discrete components, because they are in principal propietary for TD5 engine, so there are not any specialized ICs for this. NNN000120 can be repaced by NNN500020 or NNN500250 with the right map. For test or emergency run (dead ECU somewhere outside) TD5 runs with any ECU, it just needs imobilizer pairing in car made with diagnostics (or removed imobilizer from TD5 ECU), and correctly set typ of gas pedal (2 or 3 ways), with wrong pedal, it will only run on idle. With "wrong" ECU it is not good for long run or on heavy load, but still much better, than car with death engine somewhere outside. It is good enough to run car on trailer. MSB ECU upgraded to NNN type flash needs NNN000120 or NNN000130 map, because of the switch ICs, and probably some other minor modiffications. The real problem is different package of the memorz IC - you need to connect all 44 pins the right way. "Drobek" = The Small One - Discovery 2, "Blufínek" = The Blue Thing - Defender 130, and for me at least Ford Mondeo |
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3rd Feb 2024 7:13pm |
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| Craig772 Member Since: 23 May 2022 Location: Cannock, Staffordshire Posts: 73
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@MadTom
I've been trying to piece together an answer to something which you may be able to help with. I have a 2000 TD5 90 with a 10P. It's running fine on a NNN000120 so I assume it's got the correct 10P map rather than everything else to make it a 15P engine. I want to get a second ECU as a working spare and have a Nanocom (in the post). I assume I can just copy my current NNN000120 10P map and install in a second NNN000120? From your post it seems I could also use NNN500020 or NNN500250 but would see errors? Would that give me an error light on the dash or just in the Nanocom? TIA https://www.instagram.com/roxi_defender90/ |
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3rd Feb 2024 9:20pm |
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| MadTom Member Since: 10 Sep 2013 Location: Olomouc Posts: 576
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Yes you can use your current map in another spare ECU. Just look into Nanocom manuals / videos how to do it (read map from ECU, program map into another ECU, read and program injector codes and type of gas pedal, learn IMO).
If you have some tuned map, than there is a chance, that it is locked to a WIN stored.in the ECU. There are more than one way jow.to overcome this. Nanocom will tell you, if the map in your ECU is locked, when you download it. You can use Nanocom Map Wizzard software to generate standard map and than use NNN00120, NNN500020 or NNN500250 ECU. NNN500020 and NNN500250 can use the same map. It is possible to prepare spare engine ECU in advance and than just change it without using Nanocom. Just plug and play. "Drobek" = The Small One - Discovery 2, "Blufínek" = The Blue Thing - Defender 130, and for me at least Ford Mondeo |
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4th Feb 2024 7:51am |
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| Craig772 Member Since: 23 May 2022 Location: Cannock, Staffordshire Posts: 73
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Thanks @MadTom, that's as I hoped for. As the 10P map is for the NNN00120, besides running would it generate any errors on a NNN500020 or NNN500250 ECU?
I had hope the newer ECU's may have been a little cheaper but they all seem to be the same price. https://www.instagram.com/roxi_defender90/ |
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4th Feb 2024 11:56am |
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| diesel_jim Member Since: 13 Oct 2008 Location: hiding Posts: 6037
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The chap who bought my 110 last year drowned it out on SPTA, and it cost him £600 for a replacement ECU. Might have been £650
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4th Feb 2024 6:15pm |
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| Craig772 Member Since: 23 May 2022 Location: Cannock, Staffordshire Posts: 73
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@diesel_jim I am seeing them between £400 and £700 on eBay, sometimes a bit higher
 https://www.instagram.com/roxi_defender90/ |
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4th Feb 2024 6:47pm |
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| MadTom Member Since: 10 Sep 2013 Location: Olomouc Posts: 576
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NNN000120 map will run in NNN500020 ECU, but it can show lot of mistery faults. So better is to have the right map in the right ECU.
Maps, as used by Nanocom has two parts, on is for fueling and second for "configuration of ECU". So there should be lot of varinats, and you hav eto check, if your map works in another type of ECU. Some works correctly, some not. "Drobek" = The Small One - Discovery 2, "Blufínek" = The Blue Thing - Defender 130, and for me at least Ford Mondeo |
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5th Feb 2024 7:49am |
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| mturri Member Since: 13 Jul 2010 Location: Patagonia Posts: 29  
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Whilst no guru, I can comment on the Td5 remapping workflow which happens to be the same for both engine management systems (EU2/EU3) and vehicle variants (Def/Disco2): recalibrate/extend MAP & MAF sensors, raise overboost limit, recalibrate drivers wish, smoke limiting (extend range) and torque limiting maps, adjust fuel temperature compensation maps, etc. Adjusting duration maps (advancement degrees based on injection duration) is commonly done though fundamentally incorrect. The hardware changes (e.g. replacing the very limiting stock MAP sensor for a 3.5 bar unit) will dictate how the above recalibrations are done. No difference. Same assembly map (fueling + vehicle variant) as for the 110 despite common belief. Features such as TC/ABS/Alarm/Immobiliser (and many others on the Discovery variant) are enabled/disabled via diagnostics and aren't part of the engine management system per se. 24 yrs of Td5 ownership D110 Td5 MY06 fully tuned up ex-D2 Td5 MY04 Auto ex-D110 Td5 MY00 ex-D2 Td5 MY00 ex-D2 Td5 MY99 ex-D1 300Tdi MY89 ex-D90 200Tdi MY87 |
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12th Feb 2024 12:29am |
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