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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3214

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
My 90 has a history of eating the adapter shafts. I think it was already on the 3rd genuine by 80kmiles, then got the Ashcroft shaft, all in previous ownership.

The Ashcroft shaft has not failed, but was not properly installed….

So I had to take the transfer box once in my ownership due to an oil leak between gearbox and transfer case. Root cause of the oil leak was an improperly installed cover (the red anodized aluminum cover) for the Ashcroft adapter shaft. But I also found that the bolt that fixes the cup to the gb mainshaft was loose. Due to that, and probably because mine has some alignment between gb and tc, the cup worn the gearbox mainshaft splines Big Cry Big Cry notwithstanding the lubrication that those splines can have from the gearbox oil. Ironically, the splines that usually wear were in mint condition. So what I concluded is that the wear simply moved to the ‘smaller’ splines due to the mechanical leverage caused by the misalignment.

For that reason, I would personally only fit Ashcroft shafts to my 90, as all other aftermarket could be too rigid. I also have a concern about the clamping force of the LOF shaft due to the smaller bolt, however there are many satisfied users of the LOF shaft, so probably is fine too, and I am just over thinking.

I wish there was a company that designed and fabricated a more flexible shaft (rather than go for a more solid), something like a rubber coupling, example as used in many propshafts. It seems to me that the design engineers at JLR understood the difficulties to get a proper alignment, given typical manufacturing tolerances, but their original design was flawed that it lacked any way of lubricating, and missed an important detail that dry splines will fret. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #1022762 28th Jan 2024 3:22am
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16909

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Dinnu wrote:
... I would personally only fit Ashcroft shafts to my 90, as all other aftermarket could be too rigid. I also have a concern about the clamping force of the LOF shaft due to the smaller bolt, however there are many satisfied users of the LOF shaft, so probably is fine too, and I am just over thinking.


Agree. If a vehicle has a history of eating shafts, I think the Ashcroft shaft is the only choice since it is the only solution which allows for a small amount of flex. Similarly the LOF clamping force is a concern, however I haven't heard of any problems arising from its use. As noted above, the engineering of the IRB shaft appeals but only if you have sound reason to think that you don't have misalignment.

Dinnu wrote:
...It seems to me that the design engineers at JLR understood the difficulties to get a proper alignment, given typical manufacturing tolerances, but their original design was flawed that it lacked any way of lubricating, and missed an important detail that dry splines will fret.


Here, unusually, I find myself unable to agree! Shocked I can see nothing which suggests that the LR engineers even bothered to think about this issue, they simply designed the easiest (and cheapest) possible method of mating two existing gearboxes. They may have given some thought to lubrication (there is a seal of sorts on the joint which is pointless otherwise), and certainly failed to stipulate that the joint should be lubricated on assembly. The engineering of this aspect of the installation of the 2.4 Duratorq engine is mirrored in the other aspects, such as the barely-adequate fuel system (no rear pump, frail VCV, and stupidly-located fuel cooler), and indeed the nose-up attitude of the engine which gave rise to driveline problems. The only thing they got right was to opt for a sprung clutch driven plate, even though they managed to come up with one made by Toblerone.

Nothing, not a single aspect, of the conversion to the Ford engine, suggests competent engineering to me, It only just manages adequate engineering. It suggests to me that the process of replacing engineers with stylists was well underway, and I have speculated that the job was left to the work experience team.

Ironically once the enthusiastic owner, aided by very competent aftermarket component suppliers, has reworked the vehicle at considerable expense and corrected the inherent defects, I think that the 2.4 Defender is undoubtedly the best classic Land-Rover of recent times.
Post #1022775 28th Jan 2024 9:46am
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3214

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
Dinnu wrote:
It seems to me that the design engineers at JLR understood the difficulties to get a proper alignment, given typical manufacturing tolerances


I elaborate... why would an 'engineer' design another point of failure, and what to me seems a rather expensive solution? I can only assume that they needed to fulfill the MT82 mainshaft bolt torque requirement of 180Nm, as that holds the gearbox together (preload), so they needed to have access to the bolt while still having some 'flexibility'. A design like the IRB concept is easier and surely cheaper to manufacture! Or perhaps they had tunnel vision and they only could see splines?

The additional splines probably gave that additional misalignment compensation- perhaps on paper was a good design - but possibly FoMoCo, the manufacturer of the adaptor housing did not bother to keep to the specified tolerances, and possibly one of the explanations to the wide range of life time out of the original adaptor shaft.

As with everything, there will be (I hope) a normal distribution. Some adaptor housings just happened to be on the nominal dimensions. Those went to the lucky ones Thumbs Up Mine probably is one that should had been rejected, as probably falls on either of the extreme ends of the distribution with a Cpk < 1, .... but instead went to the assembly.

But the above is just speculation. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #1022779 28th Jan 2024 10:39am
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16909

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Although it's nearly 25 years since I was involved in production engineering, I really doubt that it is an expensive solution. Bearing in mind the sources of cost involved, design (negligible), material, machining, and assembly, I think the splined coupling is the cheapest solution in a medium-volume production environment.

The design task is trivial since both ends are already defined by the gearbox and transfer box interfaces and the spline size can be picked from a table of transmitted power. I reckon there's a couple of man-hours max in the design.

Re. materials, I don't think there is a two-part design which would use less material. When machining losses are taken into account, there will be more material machined away from the IRB part than the JLR part. The machining operations may be simpler for the JLR part since the manufacture of splines is a standard process, the IRB part whilst not complex does require a second precision machined face plus the drive dowels a precision positioned and fit. Probably not a huge difference in machining time and cost, I think.

I suspect the biggest difference is in assembly time and skill. It undoubtedly will take longer to assemble the IRB shaft and require a greater degree of skill, and but bearing in mind how badly some of the splined joints have been assembled it may be that the extra time for a bolted coupling would have been a good investment.

I do however, upon reflection, think that the work experience lad or lass who designed this intended that it should be assembled with lubricant, and I wonder at what point someone took the decision to omit the lube. Simply greasing thoroughly with a moly-based grease may well have reduced the failure rate significantly.
Post #1022800 28th Jan 2024 1:03pm
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