 | Home > Off Topic > Norton Motorcycles |
 
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2060   
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Would be very interested if anyone on here is affected by Norton Motorcycles apparently going into administration today and in particular if you have paid a deposit / in full for a bike that has never been delivered??
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/jan...nistration Have previously seen a few guys with Defenders on factory tours, etc |
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29th Jan 2020 9:32pm |
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| DonH2000 Member Since: 12 Jan 2015 Location: North Kent Posts: 551 
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Sad but every Company knows the rules, if you don't pay your taxes the Revenue are the first and most vicious to come after you.
Also they are guilty of Trading Whilst Insolvent which is also against the law. Cheers Don. |
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30th Jan 2020 10:21am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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Bloke behind the new Norton has quite an interesting history:
https://thespeakersagency.com/speaker/stuart-garner/ Is your deposit direct with them rather than a dealer? Reading online about a bloke who paid in full, £18k, and has been waiting 7 months.  |
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30th Jan 2020 6:47pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2060
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To my knowledge all of the Special Edition bikes were sold direct from the factory rather than dealer.........
Looking more and more like a Ponzi scheme!! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/...nd-scandal |
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30th Jan 2020 8:51pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Good background article on Norton and it's money tree here:
https://www.morebikes.co.uk/news/67560/sev...-collapse/ |
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1st Feb 2020 9:42am |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2060
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as above simple Ponzi scheme...........massive amount of articles all over by various people which all appear to state is was "known" or "inevitable", where were all of these people when honest punters were laying down payments and ultimately getting scammed??
the main issue appears to be Garners use / misuse (allegedly) of the Pension pot funds and the rather 'interesting' characters that acquired them |
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1st Feb 2020 10:20am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Not sure it can be likened to a Ponzi scheme, it looks like the guy at the top has lost everything he put into the business as well.
Amazing the Government and top bank have also been in the dark about this. Will any deposits paid by credit card potentially be liable to refund by them? |
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1st Feb 2020 2:04pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2060
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i think its incredibly naive to believe that Garner is some sort of victim in all of this, have you read any of those articles particularly the ones that deal with the pension fund (mis) management and his removal / barring from involvement let alone the way the payments for bikes have been handled..........
in approx the last month he has seemingly taken delivery of a brand new Aston Martin to add to his reasonable collection, that does not appear to be the actions of worried businessman in most cases it would appear you are not talking about deposits as such but full payments for some of the special edition bikes that amount to circa £40K+/each (200 limited edition V4SS alone and few have been built / delivered) and had to be paid for in full to guarantee order!!! and he had already announced yet another limited edition bike and started taking payments........ their treatment of customers and business practise over the last 8-12months that i have knowledge and exeperience of again does not add up to a 'well run' business |
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1st Feb 2020 2:15pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Happy for you to provide links to some of the statements you are making. Taking delivery of a car without knowing who owns it is hardly hard evidence of a crime...
Talking of naive, it's hardly that giving someone the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are known. On the other hand, giving someone £40k without doing some form of due diligence or attempting to secure it by a financial mechanism... |
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1st Feb 2020 4:19pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2060
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You seem massively defensive of someone that has already been found wanting by the Pension Ombudsman and is painted in very dark shades of grey in pretty much every emerging report that reveals ever more strange dealings, will be very intriguing to see what the administrators viewpoint is
(your first name isn't Stuart by any chance is it  )
Your own link shows just some of the now known issues but why not try and read some of the other links i have posted or indeed simply google Norton issues for yourself and see how much information is emerging There is enough 'smoke'for both ITV and The Guardian to have launched a joint investigation and make News at Ten on consecutive nights....... No skin off my nose but feel free to continue insulting the decent customers of Norton that have done no different to many others who wished to secure a 'halo' model from a seemingly well established manufacturer - not prepared to discuss openly but i do have some very direct exeperiences of just some of the goings on |
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1st Feb 2020 6:46pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I think the pension money is not really a major factor in Norton's fall if it amounts to only £2m of the total moneygoround. The details of where the pension pots where to be invested were made in black and white in the schemes Statement of Investment Principles: “In setting the investment strategy, the Trustees invest primarily in preference shares in the capital of Norton Motorcycles (UK) Limited (the Company).” Garner never solicited the money from the external investors. Investing in such a single illiquid manner could be deemed naive. Indeed, the Ombudsman talks of a test of "care as an ordinary prudent person would take" for the Trustee, but no such test for the investor. In one of the other determinations is "Mr N was unable to provide copies of any documents relating to when he joined the Scheme". Mr N transferred in over £40k of his pension but had no records! After reading several determinations, I think the chief culprit is a system, or lack of one that allows financially vulnerable people to make such life changing mistakes. The deregulation of pensions has led to a wild west/gold rush environment. It's all very sad. I'm sure Garner made mistakes, the businesses have lost money, he may have done things he can be held to account for, and if so, I hope he is; but Prof Speth lost £3.4 billion in a quarter at JLR and he's not being labelled as a criminal. |
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2nd Feb 2020 11:42am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Not massively, but have you seen the sort of people the Ombudsman has "found wanting": Lloyds Bank Pension Scheme No 2 Armed Forces Pension Scheme Royal Mail Pension Plan Action for Children Pension Fund Police Injury Benefit Scheme Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust Pension Scheme Not those I'd be lining up against the wall first, come the Revolution...
Is that what using the word "naive" does?
Genuinely - where? I can only see one link in a post of yours above? |
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2nd Feb 2020 11:52am |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2060
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Pension pot is over £14M from what i understand??
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/lo...es-3798087 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/...nd-scandal |
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2nd Feb 2020 4:48pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Looked again and last filed accounts show £6.5m.
Update: The new Trustee, Dalriada, stated in November 2019 "Norton have made some redemptions to date, reducing the Schemes' liabilities by about £2m. However, there remains an amount due to be recovered by the Schemes in excess of £14m." Incidentally, Norton were regularly redeeming the preference shares held by the pension schemes, which supports the claims made by Garner to the Pension Ombudsman ~ in the last accounts to the tune of £611k ~ that given it was used as working capital, it was not an easy thing to convert to cash. Definitely not anything like the Ponzi scheme you describe. Last edited by Supacat on 4th Feb 2020 1:33pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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2nd Feb 2020 8:33pm |
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