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90 Dreamer

Member Since: 13 Jul 2019
Location: Oop North
Posts: 2054

2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Corris Grey

There are many streams of cash coming in the Pension scheme cash is just one, what I meant by the Ponzi is that its now appearing that they were releasing each new 'special' and taking payments (not just minor deposits) seemingly to fulfill the last orders and only releasing bikes in dribs & drabs

Also at this point its not clear if build numbers have been sold more than once.........

Why is the new building empty and unused, why is the training provider in receivership and no or few Apprentices
Where is the Japanese connection / funding
Lots of suppliers seemingly unpaid
His own Accountancy firm were alarmed by the lack of profit, etc and potential for the future.......

I suspect there is some 'interesting' details to emerge and unfortunately (maybe because I know other info) I am not as trusting in his character / company as you appear to be

And no-one has even started to look into the corporate 'sponsorship' invovled in the race teams, etc........

2nd Feb 2020 9:06pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

90 Dreamer wrote:
There are many streams of cash coming in the Pension scheme cash is just one, what I meant by the Ponzi is that its now appearing that they were releasing each new 'special' and taking payments (not just minor deposits) seemingly to fulfill the last orders and only releasing bikes in dribs & drabs

You say seemingly - but wasn't that implicit at the time - why else would they need the money, and although it's a risky thing to do for the depositor, it seems legitimate to use these sums as working capital. On reflection, not to use the money as working capital would seem to be more "wrong" as in just "profiteering".

90 Dreamer wrote:
Also at this point its not clear if build numbers have been sold more than once.........

That sounds a little like the worst sort of tabloid journalism - the truth being there is no evidence of this or it would be clear that this had happened...

90 Dreamer wrote:
Why is the new building empty and unused

Because they were running low on working capital and the building was funded in all/part by a third party?

90 Dreamer wrote:
why is the training provider in receivership

Because it's a linked company getting it's funding from the Group?

90 Dreamer wrote:
and no or few Apprentices

How many apprentices should there be - they had a number on the books that were published - it was not a small number?

90 Dreamer wrote:
Where is the Japanese connection / funding

Details are in the annual accounts...

90 Dreamer wrote:
Lots of suppliers seemingly unpaid

Again, a signal that the business may be in distress but not a signal of criminal activity. I've worked for businesses where we sat down each month and planned the suppliers that were to be paid and those that weren't, cash flow is king. Most businesses operate this way.

90 Dreamer wrote:
His own Accountancy firm were alarmed by the lack of profit, etc and potential for the future.......

Have you read the actual report? It's actually his Auditors and all they do is discharge their legal auditing responsibilities by stating the obvious with regard to it being a "going concern", which echoes Norton's own statement on the situation "The Group is therefore dependent on the future financial support of its creditors, group companies and group bankers, Santander."

In fact if you look at the next section were they have a duty to report if the financial statements are misleading or materially inconsistent with their findings they actually say "we have nothing to report in this regard". Norton's own statement on the situation is "The Group is therefore dependent on the future financial support of its creditors, group companies and group bankers, Santander."

90 Dreamer wrote:
I suspect there is some 'interesting' details to emerge and unfortunately (maybe because I know other info) I am not as trusting in his character / company as you appear to be

I think there's already copious amounts of "interesting" details publicly available but nobody in the press, especially the motorcycle press, was willing to ask the questions.

Have a read of this:
"With the collapse of Norton, Toad wonders why so many people didn’t read the signs"
https://www.visordown.com/features/general...read-paper

As an example look at the Exceptional Items sections and the loans to other parts of Garner's empire that were written off.

3rd Feb 2020 10:31am

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

There is more on this on ITV news tonight should anyone be interested. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

12th Feb 2020 7:36pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Would be interested but usually the mainstream press appear several days behind the story and do not discuss "contentious" issues whilst in the wild West of social media, all sorts of comments are made and accusations aired.

12th Feb 2020 7:45pm

90 Dreamer

Member Since: 13 Jul 2019
Location: Oop North
Posts: 2054

Guardian & ITV still running with this

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/...otorcycles

looking like the fact they were "verified" by the UK Government was the deciding factor in lots of people putting their trust in Garner and yet no-one appears to have undertaken any due diligence before millions of pounds of tax payers money was handed over?? plenty of MP's past & present were happy to endorse Norton / Garner

looking like there should be a Police Fraud investigation as a min IMO

13th Feb 2020 10:38am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Police fraud investigation...that's a surefire way to see it kicked into the long grass

Would like to see a copy of the BDO report that's apparently circulating?

I'm still waiting for them to file their AM02 - Notice of statement of affairs in administration, which should shed some more light, rather than just heat, on the situation.

13th Feb 2020 11:13am

90 Dreamer

Member Since: 13 Jul 2019
Location: Oop North
Posts: 2054

the way funds appear to have been siphoned off, etc then certain people probably deserve to spend a (long) time behind bars............

intrigued why you think not having a criminal investigation is 'better' in the long term??

13th Feb 2020 1:47pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

This:
https://www.cliffordchance.com/hubs/regula...ffice.html

18 months to allocate resources and then a further 12 months for digital forensic analysis...

Not a criminal investigation per se but a fraud investigation.

13th Feb 2020 2:03pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Best hope of anyone salvaging anything - although I don't know if it's just wishful thinking?

Only Keanu Reeves Can Save Norton

https://www.rideapart.com/articles/398836/...ve-norton/

17th Feb 2020 7:39am

90 Dreamer

Member Since: 13 Jul 2019
Location: Oop North
Posts: 2054

Think there have been a few in the frame like Jim Ratcliffe, etc...........

more behind the scenes showing how if appears he's even ripped off family, friends, etc.

https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton...-the-start

17th Feb 2020 1:39pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Read that ~ it's quite damning and resolves a few blanks around his involvement in Spondon.

17th Feb 2020 2:50pm

lohr500

Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 1285

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

A case of gamekeeper turned poacher then. Big time.
Amazing that it was allowed to happen.
So sad for the individuals and smaller suppliers who have lost their money and those who are now out of work as a result of the collapse.

17th Feb 2020 3:01pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Not sure anyone has lost their money yet (talking of the suppliers) if the administrators are still looking to sell it as a going concern; and some, although not all, news reports state the existing staff are being paid/kept on.

Buyers could have protected deposits with credit card part payments; and pension pots may be eligible for the Pension Protection Fund (this is just speculation on my part) ~ so while it's not a good story, it may not actually be as bad as some parts of the press make out.

17th Feb 2020 7:18pm

Chopperone

Member Since: 13 Nov 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 396

https://www.superbike.co.uk/article/norton...-the-start

Makes extremely interesting reading
Guy May your life be like toilet paper ; long & useful.

20th Feb 2020 2:05pm

90 Dreamer

Member Since: 13 Jul 2019
Location: Oop North
Posts: 2054

thats the article linked above......

20th Feb 2020 5:16pm

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