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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
So I have the car back now so will continue trying to diagnose however a few builds to answer some questions:

- reverting the tune did not help. If anything the reading was higher after (8.5m!!) however I was unable to do a test just prior so comparing to the 3.5m last time i was there. In any case this is a huge increase and honestly has me very confused as I dont think the tune could be the culprit of that much variation!

- after chatting with the mechanic my understanding is that while my car does have a dpf it does not have any form of self regen mechanisms. And if I physically look at the DPF there are no additional pipes or cables installed or coming off the DPF from factory so that seems to make some sense.

Some pictures attached which show the lack of additional sensors etc however clearly the dpf in place. So it must be a passive system of sorts - unsure what years and countries got what however originally this was a German car too to add complexity!

So given this I dont believe I would be able to read any pressure reading since there doesnt appear to be a sensor and also dont think I would be able to run any sort of static regen - however please let me know if I am wrong here!


Click image to enlarge



Click image to enlarge


- I may be using the incorrect terminology when I say EURO4 however in the NL and various other EU countries there are certain zones (mostly cities like Amsterdam) where only 'low emissions' vehicles are allowed to go - for example https://www.amsterdam.nl/en/traffic-transport/low-emission-zone/

So only diesel vehicles with Euro4 or above rating are allowed into those areas. This was one of the reasons I picked a late model defender as for whatever reason they are the only ones who were given a Euro4 rating here in Holland.

And, since 1 Jan 2023, in order to retain the Euro4 rating here you must pass the 1million per cubic cm emissions test as part of your annual APK (i.e. MOT)
Post #992215 11th May 2023 3:21pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
hornet wrote:
It is remarkable that the cleaning procedure for the injectors had a direct influence on the number of particles. For me, this would be the first starting point, namely a test of the proper functioning of the injectors.
All provided that the vehicle has been registered with guaranteed particulate emissions. As mentioned above.

It is off topic, but I am really happy to own a MY10


Hey Hornet - not sure exactly what you mean however the cleaning additives used were added to the fuel system so would clean all elements of that, including injectors, as well as the dpf as designed so its not really possible to draw a firm conclusion that it was cleaner injectors which caused the drop.
Post #992216 11th May 2023 3:24pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
TomB8 wrote:
Unfortunately, it seems more and more common that garages just want to bolt new bits on instead of properly trying to diagnose a fault. I mean they could be right, but as you have said it is a lot of money for a hunch. Could you maybe get one form a breakers?

If this is the first time the emissions have been tested since you had the tune then I guess that is the best place to start.

I don't know much about dpf's but it does sound like you do long trips, which should mean from what I understand that it should be clean-ish, so perhaps you have some underlying issue that has resulted in excess build-up over time? Perhaps even just the tune and your right foot regularly testing how good it is.

I am sure someone will be able to advise how to test for a leaky injector, it may be as simple as popping them out with the fuel rail, running the pump and watching for any drips?

1 bar should have revealed any leaks in the intake as you say. Do the noises happen when the car is stationary and if so, have you tried going round with a mechanics stethoscope?


Chatted to the mechanic about it possibly being fuel side related and he was very confident that if it was something like a leaking injector it would be fairly obvious for other reasons such as the noise at idle, running rough, noticeable fuel usage etc.

And also that any minor leak wouldn't be the cause of such high emissions anyway as a fully functioning dpf would be able to handle that.
Post #992217 11th May 2023 3:26pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
TomB8 wrote:
I would have thought the dpf would throw a code if not doing what it is supposed to - it did so on my tdv8. In fact, it did so very rarely, but I decided that as there were isolated cases of a failed egr's causing total engine loss both should be replaced. That took me 2 days, cost over £500 and the old ones seemed fine! No more codes though thankfully.

Found a dpf of eBay in the Netherlands, not cheap but much cheaper than a new one: https://www.ebay.nl/itm/144568663880?hash=...R-Se2uSAYg

I am very much hopeful reverting your tune will resolve your issues.

I just read an interesting article on Delphi technologies website: making sense of your sensors: dpf differential pressure sensor. Which would suggest that if the dpf wasn't working as it should (it was blocked or had a hole in it) the sensors would pick it up and throw a code, or that the sensors may not be performing as they should. There is a useful guide on how to check the sensors. If you want a link let me know and I'll send when back at my pc.

Regards your noise, might be a silly idea, but could you duct tape a mic in various places to identify where the noise is loudest? Obviously not on your exhaust, but you might at least be able to tell what kind of area the noise is coming from.


Thanks thats awesome and I will keep an eye on that and also reach out to see the kms.

What I dont know is that with a passive DPF system is there any warning light at all since there are no sensors....?

What I do know is that the professional cleaning company didn't note any restriction in flow when they were cleaning it. So its not collapsed or anything however it could still have some larger than factory gaps or even just have 'run out' of whatever precious metals etc are being used as the filter medium!
Post #992218 11th May 2023 3:28pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
MatLandy wrote:
Dinnu wrote:

As to the EGR comments posted earlier, I see that my EGR position goes to about 45% when idle. But unsure if that is 45% open or 45% closed.


That means 45% open, and is OK when idling. Most important is that you have 0% when accelerating and working the engine. If not you have a failing EGR (not capable of closing fully anymore). This means exhaust gas leaking back into the inlet manifold when revving and not adequate fuel/air mix to the combustion chamber. This will contribute to sooth and smoke out of the exhaust. (and not achieving full power / max torque).

I am unsure if the Dutch MOT emission testing is performed when revving the engine, but if that is the case and the EGR is not closing properly when revving, this might very well contribute to failing the test. I would suggest to monitor the live values of commanded and actual EGR position using a Nanocom or other OBD reader while driving to establish if the EGR is working properly or not, before forking out big money on a new DPF.

/Mat


I had not heard of the Nanocom before now.....damn you! Is it worth the $'s? What do most people end of using it for?
Post #992222 11th May 2023 3:38pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16884

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
BaCoNMX6 wrote:
...
- after chatting with the mechanic my understanding is that while my car does have a dpf it does not have any form of self regen mechanisms. And if I physically look at the DPF there are no additional pipes or cables installed or coming off the DPF from factory so that seems to make some sense.
...


I'm not quite sure what you're meaning with this. In the normal course of events your DPF will regenerate when required in what is now the usual manner for nearly all cars, namely extra fuel will be injected during the exhaust strokes of the engine. Some of this fuel will then pass with the exhaust gas to the DPF where it will be ignited to burn off the soot (the rest will helpfully dribble past the piston rings and dilute the oil in the sump, ultimately leading to premature engine failure, such is the price of green-ness).

I'm not sure what you are expecting to see on the DPF itself.
Post #992223 11th May 2023 3:44pm
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dotom



Member Since: 04 Feb 2012
Location: Dortmund
Posts: 89

Germany 
If possible try two or three tanks of Aral Ultimate Diesel or Shell V-Power Diesel. That also cleans everything... and also it runs smoother.
Best regards
Tom Defender 90 XS, 10-2015, Corris grey
Post #992234 11th May 2023 4:27pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
I got the impression that some systems actually have a direct feed to the filter itself instead of relying on the process you describe

Something like the attached I suppose
Post #992235 11th May 2023 4:28pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
dotom wrote:
If possible try two or three tanks of Aral Ultimate Diesel or Shell V-Power Diesel. That also cleans everything... and also it runs smoother.
Best regards
Tom


Cheers Tom

I have always sprung for the premium diesel so it's all the car has ever seen during my ownership
Post #992236 11th May 2023 4:29pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
blackwolf wrote:
BaCoNMX6 wrote:
...
- after chatting with the mechanic my understanding is that while my car does have a dpf it does not have any form of self regen mechanisms. And if I physically look at the DPF there are no additional pipes or cables installed or coming off the DPF from factory so that seems to make some sense.
...


I'm not quite sure what you're meaning with this. In the normal course of events your DPF will regenerate when required in what is now the usual manner for nearly all cars, namely extra fuel will be injected during the exhaust strokes of the engine. Some of this fuel will then pass with the exhaust gas to the DPF where it will be ignited to burn off the soot (the rest will helpfully dribble past the piston rings and dilute the oil in the sump, ultimately leading to premature engine failure, such is the price of green-ness).

I'm not sure what you are expecting to see on the DPF itself.


Does anyone have a handy summary at all of the different dpf systems etc for the defenders as I am inclined to beleive he knows his stuff and he was clear that my year doesn't have any active regen process....happy to be told otherwise though!
Post #992238 11th May 2023 4:31pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3210

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
BaCoNMX6 wrote:
I got the impression that some systems actually have a direct feed to the filter itself instead of relying on the process you describe

Something like the attached I suppose


My 2.2 has a couple of sensors as follows:
1. What seems to be a lambda sensor, right on the top of the DPF cannister
2. 3x what seem to be temperature probes. I do not know if they are pt100, or just thermocouples.. I know they are 2 wire.
3. 2 pressure tapping before and after the DPF cannister which go into a differential pressure switch

I google for a picture as do not have one readily available, and cam across the schematic from LRWorkshop:
https://www.lrworkshop.com/diagrams/land-r...2.2tdci#24

So cross referencing with my list above:
1. Item 25
2. Items 22,23,24
3. Item 21 (the rubber hoses and the pressure differential sensor is not shown)

If you do not have the above, then I am highly suspecting that you do not have a DPF afterall.

Could you have a ROW (Rest of the World) spec Defender??? If yes, how the heck did it make it to Germany or NL!! A DPF must have all those sensors to work properly - think of it like a closed loop system. Check your VIN, I find this site give gery good (and somehow reliable) information:
https://www.vindecoderz.com/ to see if you really have what outside NL consider as a Euro 5.

Indeed, unlike some manufacturers, JLR never made a push button on the dash to trigger a forced regen on the Defender. Note that the 2.2 ECU is not a copy paste of the Ford Transit ECU. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #992239 11th May 2023 4:50pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
Looking at that LR workshop website there appears to be 2 different downpipes/DPF - one being EU5 and one being EU4.

I suspect that is where the difference is as the EU5 rating is much tougher once again and wondering if depending on the country of sale it was different as to what was installed from factory.

There is no question that there is a physical DPF installed in my car though - not just for the fact that it was removed and physically cleaned 2 days ago! haha

The VIN check simply confirms its a 2014/15 model but doesnt seem to tell me much else?
Post #992242 11th May 2023 5:11pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3210

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
I just wonder if there were any late Defenders with just a CAT.

Edit: the 8th character in your VIN is the engine. P is Euro5 with DPF. R is ROW, not Euro 5. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #992243 11th May 2023 5:15pm
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BaCoNMX6



Member Since: 22 Apr 2022
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 63

Netherlands 
Thanks Dinnu!

So my VIN's 8th character is an 'R' so ROW according to your info.

So this all begs the question....what on earth is this sitting in my 2015 defender....?



Click image to enlarge


because it looks identical to this (https://www.vitesse-ltd.com/products/lr041312-dpf-filter-for-land-rover-defender-90-110-puma-2011-2016-ch129n497af) just with all the various hoses etc blocked off.

Which does somewhat suggest it could be something like a ROW car which wouldn't usually come with a DPF however when the EU/Germany introduce some sort of emissions law then people simple bolted on the DPF part but since the ECU wasnt coded for it they simply block off the various pipes and sensors??

Which would mean it is the DPF however in the last x years since it was fitted it never did a proper regen cycle?


Last edited by BaCoNMX6 on 11th May 2023 5:34pm. Edited 1 time in total
Post #992246 11th May 2023 5:30pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3210

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
I suspect it is just a CAT, as you would normally find in a 2.4, which in EU is a Euro4. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #992248 11th May 2023 5:33pm
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