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| RobKeay Member Since: 19 Jul 2009 Location: Stafford Posts: 1567   
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Absolutely that’s why Range Rover is still ICE. It’s remit makes electric or any other propulsion impractical.
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30th Jan 2023 10:19pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415 
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2 hours is only about 160 kilometres when towing? A Model X can do over 2 tonnes and should cover that distance. Now, it isn’t affordable, but it does show that particular challenge isn’t past the capabilities of these things. |
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30th Jan 2023 10:50pm |
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| RobKeay Member Since: 19 Jul 2009 Location: Stafford Posts: 1567
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Think the rivian will also but don’t think it’s available in the UK
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30th Jan 2023 10:58pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2548 
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No, because I’m talking about refilling while on a journey, if it takes 6 times as long you’ll need 6 times as many ‘pumps’ - unless people’s driving habits change significantly. For the local stuff then yes charging at home will suffice, for those lucky enough to have a driveway. Maybe I’m unique in wanting to get where I’m going. Unless there’s some medical issue anyone should be capable of sitting in a comfortable car for 4.5 hours. You might choose to stop more regularly but I would take issue with being forced to stop for an hour every 300 miles. |
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31st Jan 2023 10:28am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16874 
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No, you're far from unique, but it seems that we are in the unfashionable minority.  |
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31st Jan 2023 10:34am |
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| jpboost Member Since: 13 Apr 2021 Location: Gatwick Posts: 374 
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It's certainly an interesting debate.
My commute is around 30 miles each way, and most of my other journeys are under 100 mile round trip. But I do have family in the south of France who I drive down to once or twice a year, and that's 700 miles. Now I'm lucky enough to have a driveway at home, and so would do a lot of charging there. In reality if I were to switch to an BEV car now, then I'd spend less time overall charging, than I currently do refilling with diesel. Sure, a few times a year, I'd end up with a few extra charging stops on longer journeys, but in my normal day to day life it would remove the need to ever stop at fueling stations (or EV equivalents). It's probably a balance I'd be ok with. Even though I'm a full on petrol head. I know that I'm likely to have to separate my interests and hobbies, from my basic transport needs. I'll continue to have (several) ICE cars for fun, but I can see that at some point in the not too distant future BEV is probably right for a lot of my dull commuting, shopping, school runs etc. But importantly for some of the dicussion points here, there is also a bit of a wellness/safety consideration to include. Is there any real need to be able to drive 3-400 miles without a break? I'm sure we all have, and many of us still do, but really (and outside of any emotional arguments about EV vs ICE cars), I think we probably could all admit that we ought to take breaks when driving long distances. I'm no expert, but if you look to professions where there is legislation in this space, there's lots of information out there. Google brings up guidelines like: Maximum driving before a break is 4½ hours. A break of no less than 45 minutes must be taken after no more than 4.5 hours of driving. The break can be divided into two periods – the first at least 15 minutes long and the second at least 30 minutes – taken over the 4.5 hours. 45mis break over 4.5hours... Presume that'd be enough to keep most EVs topped up for the kinds of extra range we're discussing here. I'll be the first to admit that when I've got a long way to travel, then I tend to press on, and take fewer brakes than I probably should. I've done many 14-20 hour drives across the continent, with only fuel stops, but looking back, I'd admit they weren't my most responsible of choices. Perhaps the inevitable change towards EV motoring will modify (improve) my behaviour in this space. Of course, some of us will be in the 1%. That said, I bet there's a lot of people in the 99% who convince themselves that they are not. _For clarity, that's not a comment aimed any anyone on this thread, just a broader comment based on the many discussions I've had on this topic with people in my life! |
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31st Jan 2023 11:53am |
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| Muddybigdog Member Since: 11 Apr 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 991 
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My main issue is scrapping perfectly working vehicles in order to go electric, as building the existing ICE has already generated plenty of emissions, To scrap these ICE vehicles and build new EVs is putting huge more emissions into the atmosphere (as building an EV vehicle emits twice as many emissions as an ICE vehicle) plus recycling huge volumes of batteries at end of life, is having a downstream environmental impact
https://knowablemagazine.org/article/techn...-batteries Ideally, an interim fuel type (e-fuels) that are cleaner but can be used in an existing ICE vehicle, deserves investment and subsidies. This could give technology time to advance, infrastructure to catch up and alternatives to be discovered. Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200 Puma 90 XS - Sold D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold) Freelander 2 HSE - Sold Freelander 1 - Sold Disco 2 - Sold |
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31st Jan 2023 12:51pm |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 09 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2260 |
They also can release Nitrous oxide which if scaled up would be harmful to the environment.....so not the total answer yet! |
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31st Jan 2023 1:05pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16874
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When will the first viable battery-electric long-haul airliner be produced?
Will hydrocarbon-guzzling airliners still be flying round the globe (and often dumping fuel) after our freedom to drive ICE-vehicles is just a distant memory? I guess the real solution is to social-engineer the expectation of long-distance travel out of society, after all 150 years ago you had no choice but to go by train. |
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31st Jan 2023 1:37pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3997 
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Unless there's some unforseen quantum leap in battery tech we won't be seeing EV airliners. Much too heavy. One of the downsides of EV of any type is that you are carrying that battery weight constantly, it doesn't go down as the "fuel" is used up. Synthetic fuel offset by carbon capture is where I think commercial aircraft will go. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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31st Jan 2023 3:09pm |
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| jpboost Member Since: 13 Apr 2021 Location: Gatwick Posts: 374
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I think you've got a very good point. But yes, I imagine that's the case. I don't expect that the journey to a lower pollution society will look like consistent approaches across all sectors (or indeed within sectors such as transport). I'm not sure it realistically could. But hasn't that always been the way? Trains moved to electric power while cars and trucks continued to burn fossil fuels. no doubt for a whole host of reasons (and I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in this space) but you get what I mean. Of course it is easy to pick out the inconsistencies and extreme ends of policy impact, but I'm not sure how far that gets us. As someone who regularly makes use of cheap short haul flights, I have become entirely used to being able to travel cheaply in Europe to keep up with my family. In fact it's easier for me to pop and see my cousin the south of France than it is to see some other relatives I have in the north of England... In the long run, it's hard to see how that is sustainable. I've not tried the train option yet, perhaps I should give it a go to experience it first hand. |
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31st Jan 2023 3:34pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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I don't think your maths are quite correct. Remember that most fuel stops at pumps are by people who are mostly commuting or doing their daily driving routines. Most fuel stops are not done by people driving cross country. With many/most EV drivers charging at home, that need disappears. DC Fast Chargers are mostly only for people who are actually driving long distance — a small percentage of most driving. That's why you don't need more public charging stations than fuel pumps (although that will soon be the situation, because it's practical). This of it this way: if everyone could create petrol at home and work, we'd need far fewer petrol stations. |
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31st Jan 2023 3:46pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2548
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Perhaps I’m not being clear. I am talking about refilling on a long journey - so motorway services and similar facilities. Not your local BP round the corner which I agree would see a reduction in demand.
If 1,000 people want to drive from Scotland to London and need to fill up along that journey then (assuming 5 mins vs 30 mins for sake of argument) the electric vehicles will spend six times longer doing so, ergo you will need many more of them and something for all the people to do while they wait. Nobody in their right mind fills up on the motorway unless they are in that long drive situation and cannot avoid it, so I think it’s a comparable position. |
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31st Jan 2023 3:52pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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If you mean 6 times more motorway stalls then it would still be a big maybe. Many people (myself included) use motorway stations to fuel on daily commutes too, so they're not only travellers, but admittedly you'll get more of them than at your corner station.
Even DC Fast Charging stations are springing up very quickly. Along one of my main routes (Helsinki–Jyväskylä) I wouldn't be at all surprised to find there are actually already more charging points than fuel pumps on the main road stations. The only one that doesn't have them is, surprise surprise, the station owned by a Russian oil giant. As for the 'something to do', for me it's 'quick pee' or 'lunch'. You're not sitting around there for hours, charging, so I don't need any more activity than what I'd do anyway at a stop. The car is almost always ready before I am. |
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31st Jan 2023 5:07pm |
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