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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415  
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As mentioned, EVs are not yet necessarily for everyone, but I’d argue the vast majority. There is no way in hell I’d do 600 miles with only one quick pee break. I’d be drained beyond safety limits. Remember also that when looking at charge times you won’t be charging from empty. Generally when I stop at a fast charger it will be full in much less than an hour. For that trip two stops could do it, although personally I’d probably take more just to stretch my legs, not necessarily because the car would need it. |
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29th Jan 2023 9:58pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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We have temperatures going down to below -20C. Maybe then a 30% drop of range with pre-heating. Remember also that EVs heat up very quickly, melting all the ice from windows and doors while you are putting your clothes on, and they start on the button every time. No nervous key turning. Plus the smooth torque allows good traction control and human control in varying conditions. They are actually great winter cars for regular day to day stuff. |
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29th Jan 2023 10:02pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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Charging spots already charge fees for electricity. Plus they are a great way get customers in. It’s why you see them at shopping centres, hotels, museums etc. they are much easier to place and build than fuel stations, which is why there will soon be many more of them. Long trip driving is not necessarily a lot cheaper than with fuel. But of course regular day to day stuff is generally a lot cheaper, when you can charge at home. Plus servicing is almost non-existent. We haven’t changed a single brake pad, or any oils or really done anything in the 2.5 years of having two (different) electric cars. |
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29th Jan 2023 10:06pm |
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| Muddybigdog Member Since: 11 Apr 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 992  
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Our former neighbour towed a tri-axled trailer loaded with a couple of Holsteins from Devon to Kendal in his Tesla X (probably overweight) he fancied some comfort on the journey.
He had to stop a total 7 times, his words "first and last time I'll ever tow in the Tesla" he was worried about the extra time his cattle were on their feet because of the time stopped to charge, its now back to his Dmax Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200 Puma 90 XS - Sold D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold) Freelander 2 HSE - Sold Freelander 1 - Sold Disco 2 - Sold |
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30th Jan 2023 10:51am |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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I can't imagine a Model X being a particularly suitable vehicle for that, and a Dmax definitely is a better fit. At the moment there aren't any real utility EVs available in Europe. Americans have their F150 Lightning and perhaps the Rivian as options, but there still aren't that many choices, although more will come (let's see what the final Cybertruck is like).
We have a large sauna that we tow around places, and there's no EV available that can do the job. Hell, there are few diesel vehicles that can manage it, bar the Defender we have. While there are no EVs suitable for heavy towing in Europe yet, that will no doubt change. Few regular drivers need to regularly haul cattle or saunas around, though. |
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30th Jan 2023 11:11am |
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| miker Member Since: 13 Sep 2015 Location: Surrey Posts: 1758 
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The "many hours to recharge" rhetoric is vastly out of date.
The MG4 can recharge at 135 kW, adding 160 miles in 30 minutes. The Kia EV6 can recharge at over 200kW, adding 330 miles in 30 minutes The Hyundai Ioniq 5 can recharge at over 200kW, adding 300 miles in 30 minutes. The DC fast charging network isn't there in all the places all the time yet, but it is growing rapidly. At the infancy of ICE engined cars there also weren't 4 petrol stations in every town. Yes doing a long journey at present can cost more in an EV than an efficient diesel, but that is offset by the fact that MOST of the time you are charging at home on cheap overnight rate electricity. Hydrogen for most use cases is in my opinion a complete red herring, most of it is made currently by stripping the H out of Hydrocarbons. Ie, oil. No, Batteries arent the solution for everything, but they don't have to be. they probably are a perfect solution for 90% of the population in the long run, and that 90% reduction in ICE vehicles is significant. But yes, sadly, the FUD is real. |
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30th Jan 2023 1:36pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16876 
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My Puma can add 400 miles in five minutes, which is a whole different league to the figures you have quoted above.
I haven't seen a charging point yet which will allow a Defender-sized vehicle with a 16' x 8' tri-axle trailer get close, at least not without bringing the forecourt to a standstill. There is a huge way to go yet before this is a viable option for those who actually use Defenders as they were designed. |
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30th Jan 2023 3:01pm |
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| miker Member Since: 13 Sep 2015 Location: Surrey Posts: 1758
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Yes, totally agree, but 30 minutes is not "hours and hours" which is what many in this thread have been crying.
Yes, there is an issue of larger vehicles and charging points. But also the physics of towing with an EV long distances don't yet add up. Also, you know damn well you're in the 1% of users and use cases! Average daily mileage is 20 miles a day in the UK. Which means most people can get away with charging once every fortnight in many current EVs. There are an ever decreasing number of people who "use defenders as they were designed" it's why the new defender... isn't a defender |
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30th Jan 2023 3:55pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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Remember that charging generally happens while you are doing something else! Most of the time I prefer charging to fuelling as I simply plug the car in, head off to take care of my business, come back, drive off (with a preheated or prechilled car). It really is a different experience and very easy and pleasant (apart from the stupid apps and tags that the non Tesla chargers tend to do). No standing around with pump in hand in freezing weather, before separately going in for some tea. There are charging stations appearing that support driving through. Tesla's newer ones tend to be like that. |
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30th Jan 2023 4:13pm |
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| Retroanaconda Member Since: 04 Jan 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 2548 
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Nobody is saying that EVs won’t suit 90% of journeys, for local driving about or things like taxis or delivery vans in cities they are very suitable.
Adding 300 miles in 30 minutes is starting to become a bit more realistic, but it’s still a significantly poorer rate than diesel offers. I am sure lots of these fast chargers are being built but if it’s 30 mins rather than 5 mins you will need 6 times as many as we currently have pumps otherwise when you turn up you’ll not find one. I am not, nor I think are others, inventing imaginary situations to make the EV sound impractical. We are highlighting the shortcomings that still exist for a number of use cases. And it is concerning they the great machine is ploughing forwards seemingly with 100% EV adoption as a target when these basic shortcomings haven’t been addressed yet. This doesn’t even take into account towing or haulage, for which EV appears to be wholly unsuitable. |
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30th Jan 2023 4:24pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16876
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Yes, for me "charging" happens when I am holding the nozzle. If I am trying to get somewhere, I have no real ambition to be doing "something else", and most of the places where fuel is (or charging points are, for that matter) available, are places which I would not want to be if I did want to do "something else"!
However you are right, I completely acknowledge that I am not your "average" motorist, but minority groups have in the past been ignored and treated badly and look where that got us! There is no single solution, which is why I become increasingly dismayed by the tendency of our elected leaders to legislate in restrictive ways. When catalytic converters became a legal requirement, I believe that Ford binned their lean-burn clean engine programme, because no matter how clean it was it would be illegal since it had no cat. Similarly I don't think that making the only legal option battery-electric is sensible because it discourages other research. I am also personally far from convinced that the manufacture of batteries is not at least as environmentally damaging as just about anything else mankind has done, and one day will itself present a similar problem to the one it is currently supposed to solve. 1% and proud of it! |
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30th Jan 2023 4:28pm |
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| kenzle8a Member Since: 12 Feb 2020 Location: None Posts: 1074 
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I also like the fact I've got a couple of spare 20 lite black liquid batteries sat about in case of an emergency.
My wifes Octavia 4X4 is the standard to which EV's need to get before I'd really consider a change for us. Driven sensibly it can do 600 miles on a tank, it's about 300 miles to her folks house and we easily do it on half a tank with the aircon or heater running. Heck my TD5 does about 600 miles to a tank providing I keep it under 60 mph, we did Edinburgh to Mull, a week of driving round Mull and back to Edinburgh on a tank. Sad I know but I keep mileage logs to make sure its running well. Most of the time round here it does 280 miles to 1/2 a tank, thats a bit of motorway, mostly 50mph and towing the trailer about and pottering on the farm. Personally to save the planet I think we should drop the motorway limit to 60 (not just because its the happy speed for us TD5 owners...) |
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30th Jan 2023 6:56pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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You’re forgetting that most charging is done at home, so no you don’t need 6x as many chargers. Having said that, within a few years we probably will have 6x as many, just because it’s so much easier to set up a charger. Which is why you see them at museums, parks, shopping centres etc where you wouldn’t see fuel pumps. Selling it as only for local driving just isn’t fair. For most people an EV can cover everything their ICE car would do. Long distance isn’t really a big problem. Again, you’re not standing around waiting for a charge, I’m doing whatever else I’d want to do during a stop. But maybe I’m the only one who has a need to eat, sleep and pee during the day. |
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30th Jan 2023 8:16pm |
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| RobKeay Member Since: 19 Jul 2009 Location: Stafford Posts: 1567 
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If I’d driven best part of 300miles or say 220 I’d want more than a 30minute stop anyway. Go to the loo by an overpriced children’s coffee drink. Read how rubbish and poor Britain is, or there might be a celebrity with important news. Then another 220miles by which time I’d still have range left and be drinking in epernay or a nice single malt if I went the other way.
If you stop at a mates house nick they’re electric. Then everyone goes on about not having a drive. Not sure I’d want to own a car and not have somewhere to put it. |
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30th Jan 2023 9:03pm |
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