 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Could Land Rover have built the Grenadier? |
 
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| TonyF Member Since: 13 Aug 2015 Location: Tasmania Posts: 61   
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With most of the Grenadier now revealed, many Defender enthusiasts are pretty excited about it. I have to ask myself just how it differs from the Defender and why didn’t JLR upgrade the Defender in a similar way?
To me, there are three main differences. The first is size. On the roof console of the Grenadier the overall width is shown as 2.13m, more than 300 mm wider than the Defender. My Defender is wide enough for me but I think it’s a market reality that a new model would need to be wider. The Land Rover 6 x 6 Perentie was, I think, about 150 mm wider than the standard 110, so that should not have presented a great challenge to JLR. With increasing width comes reduced manoeuvrability so I think 150 mm increase would have been enough. With increased size comes increased weight, requiring increased power. We see that in the Grenadier and I think would have been inevitable in a suitably upgraded Defender. The BMW 3.0 l diesel is supposed to give 7.9 l per 100 km and that’s probably as good as an appropriate ICE will give. The second difference is a modernisation. Many Defender owners resist even the idea of this but I think that what it amounts to is a better finished interior, fully lined, better seating, better instrumentation and hopefully more robust body and doors, more dust-proof and with fewer rattles and hopefully lower general noise level. And achieved with maintaining body on chassis construction, which JLR could have also done but didn’t with their new Defender. The increased robustness is another contribution to increased weight which I think is going to end up being about 300 kg heavier than a 110. Of course, there are lots of other refinements, all easily achievable if JLR had gone in the same direction. The third significant different is factory options such as winch, snorkel, driving lights and diff lockers which can be readily incorporated in the grill design, an accommodating front bumper and pre-wired switching. This allows for many of the most popular upgrades to be made pre-delivery, with factory warranty and very neatly. I think Ineos is presenting us with a really good interpretation of what JLR should and could have done, in developing an upgraded Defender, faithful to the original design. |
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10th Jul 2021 7:31am |
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| diduan Member Since: 13 Oct 2016 Location: Central Balkan Posts: 260 
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🍿🍿🍿
🍺🍺🍺 Defender 110 SW MY2011 2.4tdci decat, no EGR Jeep Wrangler YJ 1990 4.0. Front 78' Dana 60, Rear CUCV 14 bolt |
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10th Jul 2021 9:28am |
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| TonyF Member Since: 13 Aug 2015 Location: Tasmania Posts: 61
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You may well be right. Going the way they did, they were using a platform common to other models, saving on development costs and perhaps allowing for greater profit margins. I guess time will tell which car is the more successful, the new Defender or the Grenadier.
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10th Jul 2021 9:31am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765  
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I think it ‘could’ have been done by LR, possibly not though as well as LR in-house tech isn’t as good as all the specialist parts/teams Ineos is using, but to do so would have required a sea change in LR design-vision which for years has been inching ever closer to a fleet of luxury, tech filled SUVs which is the polar opposite to what the Grenadier is.
In terms of which sells better, you’d think the ND will win, because the luxury SUV market is so much bigger than the specialist off road market or that of those who previously owned the classic Defender. What could be interesting is the percentage in target sales achieved. ND seems to be running shy of forecast, but who knows by what percentage or why (COVID, not a Def, ugly, actually a Disco etc), so how will that compare with Ineos and whether it can hit its aimed 30k? That will likely be the sign of success. If you look at reviews (so far) for the Ineos it seems to be widely praised, by classic Def or off road enthusiasts, in articles, forums and comments. So it bodes well. However, the ND also had great reviews from car journos, who are primarily road biased and understand little about the intangible aspects of the classic Defender and its forebears, but who understand the LR target market for the ND. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey Last edited by Grenadier on 10th Jul 2021 10:12am. Edited 1 time in total |
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10th Jul 2021 10:08am |
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| kenzle8a Member Since: 12 Feb 2020 Location: None Posts: 1074 
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I’m not adverse to new versions of things, I’ve got a BMW mini that I’ve had from new 17 years ago, however it was very much a modern mini in that it handles well, small fwd hatch, had a basic but bomb proof engine, very much what a mini should be like if it was redone.
The Def2 shares only a name, i have no issue with the car at all, but it is not a replacement for the Defender and what the defender could do / could be done to. It’s not really even a replacement for the discovery 1/2 as they still had the ladder chassis. If anything it’s what the Disco 3/4 is replaced but In terms of look and market. The d5 is a blob between the Range Rover and Defender2. |
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10th Jul 2021 10:11am |
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| Muddybigdog Member Since: 11 Apr 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 992  
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I do think that JLR would struggle to develop at the same pace as Ineos, especially when it was 2011 when the DC100 was initially unveiled. Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200
Puma 90 XS - Sold D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold) Freelander 2 HSE - Sold Freelander 1 - Sold Disco 2 - Sold |
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10th Jul 2021 10:47am |
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| TonyF Member Since: 13 Aug 2015 Location: Tasmania Posts: 61
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Yes, Monsieur Le Grenadier, we would have to define how we measure success and people will have different ideas. But since we are comparing two vehicles as alternative replacements for the classic Defender, should we not compare how they rate after a period of time in the market niche of the old Defender? Farmers, rural workers, off-road enthusiasts, military, UN agencies, etc.
[quote=["Grenadier"]I think it ‘could’ have been done by LR, possibly not though as well as LR in-house tech isn’t as good as all the specialist parts/teams Ineos is using, but to do so would have required a sea change in LR design-vision which for years has been inching ever closer to a fleet of luxury, tech filled SUVs which is the polar opposite to what the Grenadier is. In terms of which sells better, you’d think the ND will win, because the luxury SUV market is so much bigger than the specialist off road market or that of those who previously owned the classic Defender. What could be interesting is the percentage in target sales achieved. ND seems to be running shy of forecast, but who knows by what percentage or why (COVID, not a Def, ugly, actually a Disco etc), so how will that compare with Ineos and whether it can hit its aimed 30k? That will likely be the sign of success. If you look at reviews (so far) for the Ineos it seems to be widely praised, by classic Def or off road enthusiasts, in articles, forums and comments. So it bodes well. However, the ND also had great reviews from car journos, who are primarily road biased and understand little about the intangible aspects of the classic Defender and its forebears, but who understand the LR target market for the ND.[/quote] |
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10th Jul 2021 10:48am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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The answer to that is very simple. Numbers. The market for a like-for-like old Defender replacement is perhaps where Ineos are pitching it 25,000 to 30,000. That's more than JLR sold in it's final years because JLR never really marketed the vehicle and couldn't put it in various markets for type approval reasons. As the time the replacement was under review, JLR were very much in the middle of Speth's "Project Icarus" - a desire to take on the big german manufacturers and sell 1 million vehicles per annum. With only a limited number of model lines, the new Defender was designed to be a vehicle that could sell 100,000 per annum. To sell that number, JLR needed a vehicle that would appeal to people who had never considered a Land Rover before, or had briefly before discounting them. The more vehicles you want to sell, the more your target audience widens, and the more you have to broaden or compromise around the edges to accommodate them. Core elements like permanent 4WD suddenly become less important in the scheme of things, as most of your widened target audience don't really know or care what that means. WiFi and connectivity become higher priorities than steel wheels for every brake package. The irony is the new Defender is the now the last vehicle built to chase the 1 million target. JLR have now turned the page and find themselves building a vehicle with an obsolete business case. For me the question is what will the next Defender look like when it only has to sell 40k units to break even? |
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10th Jul 2021 11:12am |
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| TonyF Member Since: 13 Aug 2015 Location: Tasmania Posts: 61
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OK Supacat, I'm interested in your comment that the New Defender is now an obsolete business case. Why? If it's because ICE vehicles are going to quickly lose out to electric and other renewable energy vehicles, then it concerns me that Grenadier may have the same challenge. But no doubt Ineos is going hard to get a hydrogen fuel cell onboard, with its 300,000 tonnes p.a. of hydrogen production as a by-product. How then does that leave the owner of a BMW-powered Grenadier?
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10th Jul 2021 11:27am |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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Couldn’t agree more from an old Def replacement perspective. I see the new Def as a hugely capable SUV, not a Defender, and I’ve bored some on here to death with why. All those markets you mentioned, which were the classic Defs bread and butter, will have no interest in the new Def because of a combination of price, complexity, adaptability, flexibility, repairabilty, self serviceability, multi-platformability (invented some of those words) etc, all of which the Grenadier seems to offer. In that contest alone, and as a passionate user, current and over the past 30 years, in all terrain, uses and guises, the Grenadier wins hands down. However, as a large, comfortable motorway mile cruncher, a school run transporter, or a footballer’s (or Albanian organised crime boss’s) pimpable SUV then it’s the Disco 6 that wins hands down. Sorry, New Defender. Given I rarely use motorways, don’t have kids, hate football and don’t deal in drugs/humans/weapons, I’ll plump for the Grenadier.  Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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10th Jul 2021 12:23pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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I think the notion it’s obsolete is probably less about its power unit and more about the fact that it’s not achieving the desired sales to a new audience, instead poaching from D5, RRS, Velar etc. It’s not really brought in any new business, the US market being the exception. But at its price point it’s not going to drag people over from its genuine competitors, genuinely off-road capable but primarily road biased SUVs such as the Wrangler, Land Cruiser, Pathfinder, D-Max, etc, whether in the EU, US or Australasia/SA. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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10th Jul 2021 12:32pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16875 
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Of course they "could" have built it, they have the resources. What they lacked was the will, they didn't want to make it, the company's culture has changed beyond recognition. It simply not a vehicle the current "directing minds" are interested in.
Nothing wrong with that as a commercial decision in principle, though it has been criticised by many, and Ineos will undoubtedly build a better successor to the old Defender concept that LR would have done. |
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10th Jul 2021 12:34pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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I think your last comment holds an uncomfortable truth but also a great opportunity. LR would never have gone to the effort in terms of design, use, sourcing specialist parts etc and listening to former owner’s needs, as Ineos are, to have done a good job. It would have either been over reliant on electrics, or been compromised on parts, (basic suspension, chassis, power unit, drive train etc) or both. It would have been yet another half baked compromise. So by LR following a commercial direction as you have alluded to, it has given someone else the opportunity to fill the void/niche with a genuinely well thought out and built design, that meets the expectations of this marketplace. A rare opportunity in a competitive automotive marketplace where the creation of the vehicle itself trumps pure commercial viability. For those considering this, we should thank our lucky stars as we may ultimately end up with a far, far better vehicle. Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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10th Jul 2021 12:42pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Yes partly that, but mainly the abandonment of the 1m vehicle strategy. JLR have huge overcapacity and it's new "reimagine" strategy will mean big decisions for where the Defender nameplate goes next; what platform will it sit on? The D7x platform came into being after JLR announced that all new vehicles from MY20 onwards would be on the MLA platform. What changed to make them scrap that idea and cobble something from the parts bin? In cancelling the new Jag, JLR publically stated that the "new" MLA platform wasn't good enough; odd then that's it's the future for many of the Land Rover nameplates? ICE vehicles are going to be good for the rest of my lifetime; however, having experienced first hand what living with a new Tesla is like, it would be interesting to see what a real electric off-roader would be like. The latest announcement on hydrogen from Bollore was pessimistic for the short term:  Click image to enlarge And a battery electric Defender goes against everything JLR have said previously; and if they do do it, then the MLA platform, only ever intended for use during a relatively long transition to full BEV, is not the platform to use. What we are seeing today is the failure of poor decisions made maybe 5 plus years ago & turning things around is going to be a hard task for them. |
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10th Jul 2021 1:13pm |
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