 | Home > Off Topic > Coronavirus Discussion/Advice/Assistance Thread (Part 2) |
 
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| boode Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: Devon Posts: 421   
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You don't mention death - which is known to be a Covid side effect
Also many of those side effects are listed on most medicines / pain killers that are regularly taken every day by many people |
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19th Dec 2021 1:58pm |
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| SteveT247 Member Since: 21 Feb 2011 Location: Central Posts: 491 
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Also a potential side effect of the vaccine which I also didn't mention. I really don't know why everyone is so defensive, all I've posted is the vaccine is not without it's risks which aren't being disclosed. If you, and anyone else is happy to have it, great. Like I said, I'm not trying to persuade anyone either way, but I do think people should be aware which currently most aren't.
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19th Dec 2021 2:11pm |
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| boode Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: Devon Posts: 421
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I think people are defensive because the non vaccinated are the majority of those in hospital at present with covid and are thus preventing the hospitals from doing their normal routing operations
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19th Dec 2021 2:32pm |
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| SteveT247 Member Since: 21 Feb 2011 Location: Central Posts: 491
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Thats not the case though, certainly not where I work or in the trust where a friend works. Cases are actually quite low.
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19th Dec 2021 2:35pm |
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| boode Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: Devon Posts: 421
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Covid Hospitalisations in London are up 30% in a week due to the new strain - which is why London has declared a Major Incident - the rest of the country usually follows London outbreaks a couple of weeks later
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19th Dec 2021 2:53pm |
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| Welshsurferdude Member Since: 23 Feb 2012 Location: Newport Posts: 2313 
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Ive just gone through all this Covid with my family for the first time
My wife and I plus my middle daughter at 5 years old caught it. I went down first with extreme tiredness and joint/muscle/eyeball aches plus a dry cough. my wife followed 2 days later, I felt better for a day then went back down for a day or two again, I also had extreme thirst for a few days following. I lost my taste and smell after recovering from the 2nd part, I am just regaining my taste on the 12th day and feeling back to normal now almost apart from still sweating at night. We all tested postive on lateral then PCR, my eldest at 8 and youngest at 2 did not catch it or test positive. All in all it was bad but it wasn't as bad as it could have been, I wasn't bed ridden. so really I think it'll eventually become a variant of the winter flu. 2008 Santorini Black 110 XS USW (Sold) 2015 Discovery 4.5 Black pack Firenze red XS 2008 Corris Grey 110 XS USW (sold) 2011 Santorini Black 110 XS USW (Sold) |
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19th Dec 2021 4:46pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3997  
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The impression I got was that the bigger issue is NHS staff testing positive, having to isolate and causing staff shortages. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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19th Dec 2021 6:42pm |
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| Pickles Member Since: 26 May 2013 Location: Melbourne Posts: 3753  
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Hello Steve, from Aussie.
You will not get any "Agro" from me, only sadness & disappointment that a person in your position should air such negative feelings about a vacine that clearly works, and in fact something which I find quite extraordinary, is that you are giving the impression that it's ineffective! I also gain the impression that you only "got the jab" because it is mandatory in your area of work?.....if this is not so, then why did you get jabbed? You mention side effects which are clearly minimal, VERY minimal,...it's also true to say that all vacines can have side effects, which are mentioned when you receive same, but in the vast majority of cases the benefits far exceed the risks. I'm sorry if you don't think vacines work, because the overwhelming facts that are there for everyone to see,...is that they do. I'm not saying that they provide a 100% cure & guarantee of non infection, not infecting other close contacts etc, but the figures suggest that a fully vacinated person with no underlying health issues is far less likely to become severely ill, end up in hospital etc, if they are vacinated. I keep a close eye on what is going on where I live, and on hospitalizations etc, and most hospitalizations are unvacinated, with only a small percentage of vacinated patients, in the region of 6-8% etc requiring a ventilator etc. I understand you will have your own staistics as to the % of vacinated/unvacinated etc ending up in hospitals in the UK. Unless things are different in the UK, I can tell you, & you can check the figures yourself, that the very large majority of hospitalizations are unvacinated. I would dispute your statement that in the UK, hspitalizations are going down. Unless our Aussie News info is wrong,we are hearing 90,000 infections a day, obviously not all going to hospital, but your authorities have said that there is a very real risk of your hospital system being "overwhelmed",....and for sure the same thing could happen in Aussie. I understan that Omicron is a major concern for you guys, we in Aussie are aware of it, we already have cases, not many at this stage, but authorities are warning of it's increased "infectiousness" and are preparing for it as best they can, and encouraging everyone to get their third "booster" shot,....we will be receiving ours today. Regards, Pickles. |
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19th Dec 2021 11:08pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765  
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Some, I’ll be honest, worrying and confused sentiments on here as to what the vaccine is about, how it was created, why we should be taking it, our ‘rights’ etc. My thoughts, not targeted at anyone in particular:
* Understanding how the vaccine was developed, it’s efficacy and risks, please read my previous thoughts based on information from my old man who worked in Clinical Pharmacology for one of the top five Pharma giants, as their lead doctor for 30 years. https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic76923...p;start=30 But in summary, the vaccine is not some rushed, cobbled together danger drug. It was developed off the back of decades of research and data, (flu vaccines, advancement in genome development etc); it was developed quickly because all companies focused on its development with no limit on cash and because almost all drug companies of note were involved; R&D and testing was MASSIVELY scaled up (100k people in trials rather than the normal few hundred); drug companies worked in unison and shared data, whereas usually it’s kept secret; national medical agencies were given access to data and results in real time, (rather than trawling through it after completion of trials); drug to the front of the queue for final peer review before giving it the green light rather than waiting months, if not years for review. Amount of money spent, numbers of labs involved, number of man hours in development, number of people in testing, was the same, if not hugely in excess of any standard vaccine, but was done within a year rather than ten years because of scaling up and making all resulting research available simultaneously rather than months or years after the fact. * Vaccines are not just about keeping everyone healthy, especially those who (in theory) are not at risk, but about controlling spread and ensuring those who are at risk don’t fall ill and clog up hospitals. Whilst I agree that Covid will eventually become like any other flu (as it doesn’t want to kill its host as is often currently the case) because that could take decades if not hundreds of years. Survival and mutation of bacteria and viruses are measured in millennia not months. So in the interim we have to do what we can to control numbers because….. * The NHS at any given moment is working at 95% capacity. It is not a well funded private hospital but a thinly funded behemoth. Beds (especially ICU) are limited. And as a result of seasonal illness and Brexit, staffing numbers are down. The NHS is at breaking point during any giVen winter, Covid not only exacerbates this, but could (if Covid cases were allowed to be as high as last year) break the NHS. This means we are all at risk of dying because, for example, no ICU bed is available after a serious car crash, or heart surgery etc. That’s the real risk. The vaccine is not about saving 40m adults of whom 95% won’t get it, it’s about ensuring those who might react badly are given every chance of avoiding admission to hospital. It’s not a great surprise to hear that 90% of cases are of unvaccinated patients. * And is this because they were more afraid of the vaccine than dying of Covid? Currently here are the stats: 275m cases of Covid with 5m deaths worldwide. That a 2% chance of dying (a pretty miserable) death by Covid. UK rates are at about 1.5% death rate. Case rate is about 25% of the adult population. 9bn doses of Covid vaccine given, with approx 90 deaths from blood clots. That’s, um, 0.000001% chance of dying. I’m not sure they’re really comparable. To put the Covid death rate into perspective, that’s the same number annually as heart attacks and cancer, and I’m not sure we’d ever say they’re not a serious consideration. The difference is that Covid can be spread and that because it is a respiratory disease, it has an extra large impact on ICUs and using up limited resources (ventilators) for protracted treatment. This has a trickle down effect on hospital occupancy with any given hospital eventually grinding to a halt. *Finally with regard to ‘our rights’. I’m a believer in rights. Absolutely. But people conflate their rights to do/not do something, (which might impact a third party), with what your rights should be with regard to treatment by the state. Those rights are due process, equality, fairness, etc and in modern/westernised societies health, education, freedom, freedom of thought and speech. But we live in ever more crowded urban areas, so our personal rights (to do what WE want to, when we want to), do not trump ‘the greater good’. The two versions of ‘my rights’ are not one and the same thing. We have every right to expect a fair trial (due process) if we’re ever arrested. We do NOT have a right to drink and drive - because we might kill someone doing so (third party impact, your rights being below those of the greater good), so drink driving is banned. Most of our laws are created to manage society with view to the greater good, but ensure that within those laws you as an individual are treated fairly. That’s the same with the vaccine. It’s entirely a person’s right not to take the vaccine, as currently it is not a legal requirement to do so, but based on everything I’ve said above, should your rights not to do so trump the greater good? We have limitations placed upon us all the time, through law, because it is the only way for us to live cheek by jowl with each other in relative peace and harmony. The number of cases of Covid now in hospital is rising, and the percentage of those admitted unvaccinated at 90% seems a clear correlation. So by definition those who are ‘choosing’ not to vaccinate through the mistaken belief that ‘it’s their right’ are directly impacting those who are acting on behalf of the greater good. And honestly, this is the same with mask wearing and with Covid passports. We make sacrifices across our lives for the greater good all the time, why any difference now? It’s about consideration for the vulnerable in our society. Just as you might decide to by fair trade coffee, or donate to a homeless shelter at Christmas. *Finally, the idea that because someone had it, all is good and the vaccine unnecessary, is (IMHO) fallacy. Beyond the ideas mentioned above as to why the vaccine is used, the idea that someone ‘had’ Covid and it wasn’t that bad as a reason for not taking or recommending taking it, is 20/20 hindsight, and not common sense before the fact. Nobody knows how they’re going to react before we catch it. We have all heard of super fit athletes dying of it, let alone average (slightly tubby, enjoy a beer and curry, not very fit) man or woman. Yes, they’re the exception, most people are very old and have a comorbidity. But being young is no guarantee. No one (any more) would reasonably use the excuse that “uncle Geoff smoked 90 a day and lived until he was 120” as a reason to take up smoking. Similarly here. But ultimately my main argument is that we should take the vaccine, wear masks and consider using a Covid passport (as we do in France) for the greater good. For the weak, the vulnerable. This is bigger than our individual rights, bigger than politics (sadly Macron hasn’t cottoned on) and the risks so minuscule that in my opinion worth taking when compared with the risks of dying of Covid or through falling ill with it and thereby impacting others with long term, already recognised serious illnesses such as Cancer and Heart Disease, through clogging up ICUs when it is (in the main) entirely avoidable. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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20th Dec 2021 10:18am |
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| mwestcrew Member Since: 09 Dec 2019 Location: South Warwickshire Posts: 216 
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Grenadier: That's a well reasoned and written opinion and I heartily agree with you.
For me it is all a bit more simple that the reams of statistics, anecdotal evidence and the various interpretations by the opposing sides in the debate. There is a vaccine that is very low risk that may be helping the NHS, reducing the risk of serious illness for individuals, and helping reduce the spread of a virus that kills people. It's a genuine no-brainer that everyone should have the vaccine. Same goes for wearing a mask in public. There's no real way of knowing if it works as far as I can tell but on the basis that it might why wouldn't you? Is it really so inconvenient? Are your rights to freedom seriously impinged? Hoping you all have a happy, safe and healthy Christmas and a better New Year 2011 130 Utility Body 2005 110 Van |
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20th Dec 2021 12:09pm |
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| Pickles Member Since: 26 May 2013 Location: Melbourne Posts: 3753
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Well, another couple oof weeks has gone by here in Aussie & Omicron is really a big problem here now, having gone from virtually zero to 50,000 new daily infections in a matter of weeks, and it's getting worse.
Not much use quoting numbers, because situations are different, suffice to say that hospitals, mediical facilities are at breaking point, with staff shortages, lack of resources etc,....but the Aussie Open Tennis Tournament is still to proceed, as is the 4th Ashes Test. We are fully vacinated, boosted etc, masked when we go out & social distance etc, there are oly the two of us in our home & we're quite happy in our own space, but for larger families where some are in isolation etc it must be very hard. We had to be tested recently as we had direct & indirect contact with a positive case, but luckily we were negative. Can't do much else but sit tight & obey the rules! There are those who say "It's only a virus, don't stress",..We think it's a lot more than that Pickles. . |
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4th Jan 2022 10:12am |
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| Doc P Member Since: 03 Apr 2016 Location: Midlands Posts: 565 
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Hi Pickles!
The NHS front line's feeling in the UK right now is one of some trepidation but I have to say that, locally at least, the numbers of patients requiring hospitalisation with COVID are still much smaller than the past peak and those numbers translate to relatively low ITU occupancy with COVID too. Of course, hospital and ITU occupancy is high at this time of year regardless and demand for beds never really wanes for some units (e.g. the QEH in Birmingham is a huge unit but runs at very high occupancy levels all of the time due to the demands placed upon it by its tertiary types of services). There are some hospitals which have been hit harder than others too, with up to a third of their beds occupied by COVID patients alone and we are still seeing ITU patients being moved around the midlands due to lack of ITU beds - that's not something anyone wants to see. What seems to be the case, and we on the ground floor in smaller hospitals never find out what the organism variant specifically is, is that those becoming ill and dying are still being infected with the Delta variant (or are re-infected - including the vaccinated I'm sorry to say, but mostly the not-vaccinated). The Omicron does not seem to cause as much severe illness in most people. Vaccinated patients are clearly less ill and even less ill still if it's the Omicron organism (positive tests but no symptoms, most commonly). Ironically, right now the biggest threat to the NHS is staff sickness (or staff testing positive, which requires self-isolation from those staff to protect other staff and patients). Staff have to stay at home awaiting a PCR test result if they have any symptoms and the isolation period for NHS worker is still 10 days, which is for at least 3 days longer than the general population. Hospital occupancy levels are one thing; running the services is another! Clever folk are suggesting that the virus will continue to mutate slowly and be able to evade our immune system on occasion whether we have some immunity or not but will most likely do so as a less unpleasant variant, with infectivity and transmissibility being the keys for virus 'survival' longer term and not lethality. COVID-19 will eventually become part of our human viral 'milieu', causing infections of various type (e.g. the common cold) for the foreseeable future and we will eventually adapt to its presence as a species. For right now, its still a pathogen newly infectious to humans, it is still potentially lethal and is certainly very damaging to healthcare globally. Yes - be sensible, take advice and get vaccinated to protect yourselves and others - we're not out of the woods yet but there is certainly much more hope than there was previously. |
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4th Jan 2022 11:20am |
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| Pickles Member Since: 26 May 2013 Location: Melbourne Posts: 3753
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Thanks Doc, for that really "balanced" post.
From what you say, we have basically the same issues, maybe you've had Omicron for a week or so longer than us, but I think we're both experiencing similar isssues. Obviously you're in the medical field, & have a better than most knowledge/feeling for what is actually going on. We are double vaxed & had an additional booster a week or so ago.....it'll be interesting to see whether we will get further "jabs", I think I've heard that Israel are now up to Jab No 4? Thank you for your post, and keep safe yourself. Pickles. |
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4th Jan 2022 10:43pm |
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| Joe the Plumber Member Since: 18 Dec 2013 Location: Midlands Posts: 907 
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Here's an interesting set of figures to mull over:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparenc...auses?s=09 It basically says that less than 18,000 people have died FROM (not 'WITH') Covid in the UK since March 2020. And please note, that's from the UK's Office for National Statistics, not some obscure conspiracy theorist site. |
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19th Jan 2022 7:44am |
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