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deaallen

Member Since: 15 Feb 2016
Location: Basingstoke
Posts: 263

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 SW Santorini Black

ashtrans wrote:
A subject I have learned quite alot about in the last few years !

we are now on our 4th version of this kit, the first 3 suffering from occasional random leaks which took us a while to resolve,

I naively assumed the MT82 output shaft would be inline with the LT230 input gear or at least fairly close as the adapter casting between the MT82 and LT230 is doweled front and rear.

It turns out they are not inline and some have quite an error so the LT230 input gear is holding the rear of the shaft to the side, try and visualise what this error means to the male and female spline (the one that wears) at the front of the shaft.

the faces of the spline are rubbing up and down against eachother dry, hence the wear.

There has been lots of debate in the past as to what models and years wear, I this the model and year are irrelevant as it depends were you fall in the tolerance range, some never fail ie these have minimal error, some fail every 25K, these would be way out.

I cannot categorically say that some are out of tolerance as I dont have the engineering drawings but I would suggest many are way out.

next question is what to do about it :

its not easy to correct this error so it has to be 'managed' in some way,

a) assemble with new parts and fancy blue LR grease, better than dry, will last longer but not a long term fix as grease will solidify over time and it will wear again

b) drill and fit grease nipples, better but will need topping up from time to time and I dont think grease will flow around the length of every spline as well as oil would.

c) fit our kit, we have sold over 2000 now and yes we have had some early ones leak but on our latest design this has been resolved and I have never seen one wear out and fail.

Dave

Thanks for your input Dave. Mine is a 2012 at 41k miles now, so far I have no indication of any problems with my output except a high pitched whine in 5/6 gear (or is this me being paranoid after having similar issues with my 300tdi shaft) which is why I was considering changing it while doing the clutch.

If mine was failing at 25k or even now at 40k I would buy your kit in a heartbeat, but I suppose there is the chance that mine "could" be in the small minority and have minimal error and this whine be caused by something else!?

I suppose I'll have to have a good look while its up on the ramp and decide then depending on condition

8th Jan 2019 2:16pm

ashtrans
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 08 Nov 2008
Location: Harpenden
Posts: 254

the whine is likely to be the transfer case gears, not shaft related, Dave

8th Jan 2019 2:21pm

deaallen

Member Since: 15 Feb 2016
Location: Basingstoke
Posts: 263

is there typically any warning before the shaft fails, apart from seeping rust?

8th Jan 2019 2:23pm

WindyJ

Member Since: 18 Oct 2018
Location: France
Posts: 190

ashtrans wrote:
A subject I have learned quite alot about in the last few years !

we are now on our 4th version of this kit, the first 3 suffering from occasional random leaks which took us a while to resolve,

c) fit our kit, we have sold over 2000 now and yes we have had some early ones leak but on our latest design this has been resolved and I have never seen one wear out and fail.

Dave

Dave, good to have your input on a detailed post. Appreciated.

Is there a way I can tell which version of your kit I have?
It’s new in it’s box with the nylon straps still on even. Purchases sometime 10/16 - 05/18 when the previous owner had the Defender.
Please also tell me it’s easy to fit

8th Jan 2019 3:30pm

ashtrans
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 08 Nov 2008
Location: Harpenden
Posts: 254

Hi,

yes, pls send me a photo of the kit,

Dave Dave

8th Jan 2019 4:52pm

WindyJ

Member Since: 18 Oct 2018
Location: France
Posts: 190

Cool...pm’d it to you.

8th Jan 2019 5:15pm

ozy013

Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 105

2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Rimini Red

deaallen wrote:
is there typically any warning before the shaft fails, apart from seeping rust?

Nope, no warning, just total loss of drive.....that's why I fitted Ashcrofts about 3 years ago, I do alot of solo offroading in the Victorian High Country here in Oz. I just wanted it fitted for piece of mind. The genuine one that we pulled out wasn't far off from failing.

8th Jan 2019 6:13pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7682

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

WindyJ wrote:

Please also tell me it’s easy to fit

Its really easy to fit

Once the gbox is out! Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop

8th Jan 2019 6:41pm

BogMonster

Member Since: 05 Feb 2008
Location: Stanley
Posts: 389

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

ashtrans wrote:
hank wrote:
I fitted Ashcroft when replacing the clutch and so far very happy

Yes there is a price difference but this outweighs the cost of doing it again and again if you intend to keep hold of the vehicle for at length of time

not only the cost of doing it again but it may fail at a bad time, ie all loaded up with your family about to set off on summer holiday, hard to put a price on this.

Yep, that's why I have just had one of your shafts fitted. Unfortunately as the original shaft was not in bad condition it hasn't made much impact on the bag of bolts that is the gearchange, but I can now tick off one thing that won't break 20 miles from a road and leave a bloody long walk home, or worse!

Land Rover's corporate inability to build even relatively basic things straight and working never ceases to amaze me. ---
2006 Defender 110 SW 300Tdi • 2011 Ford Ranger XLT crewcab • 2015 Defender 110 Station Wagon Utility TDCi

8th Jan 2019 8:27pm

DSC-off

Member Since: 16 Oct 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 1350

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green

"There has been lots of debate in the past as to what models and years wear, I this the model and year are irrelevant as it depends were you fall in the tolerance range, some never fail ie these have minimal error, some fail every 25K, these would be way out."

That was the result of our own forum survey last year. Many repeated failures at the same interval, often as low as 25k miles, while some do indeed go on forever.
The survey also revealed that any year or model can be affected. Early failures of 2015 MY vehicles show that the Landrover Paste solution didn't fix it, or seemingly make any improvement!

https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic62521-60.html

Thinking about it, there's much more chance of 3 castings in the driveline having misalignment than just 2 castings.
Adding an adapter between the gearbox and transfer box has 3 times more fit/machining conditions to consider.
My bet would be it's the adapter casting that's causing the issue.
Imagine the conversation, "Yeah, we just need a cheap casting to join these gearboxes together for a few years..."

8th Jan 2019 9:18pm

Julie

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 421

2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

Re: Output shaft - updated genuine or Ashcroft?

deaallen wrote:
I've heard that the ashcroft kit isn't worth the extra and that this new genuine parts kit works as well if not better

Ashcroft uses a genuine Land Rover part for the kit. Therefore Ashcroft shafts are as good as genuine parts or even better (if you consider the lubrification).

My shaft failed while downhilling in the Alpes.
Fortunately I did not need not an engine break on loose ground.

Land Rover refused a refund and just hide.
The car has only 6 years.
Land Rover product quality / marketing / customer care is rubbish.

Let's wait and see if this changes with the new Defender :::

8th Jan 2019 10:53pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16857

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Apparently the optional "Heritage Pack" for the new Defender will include fast-wearing drive flanges and an adaptor shaft failure simulator, as well as clunky wipers and sundry leaks and rattles. It will be an extra cost factory option aimed at the grumpy old man sector.

8th Jan 2019 11:35pm

hornet

Member Since: 04 Jan 2010
Location: Western Europe
Posts: 319

blackwolf wrote:
It saddens me that LR has never taken this problem seriously. There again, even the problem of front hubs breaking off the axle wasn't really taken especially seriously.

But that can be explained now. Since there is no trivial solution for the two badly aligned aggregates, the expense for LR would have been catastrophic from a financial point of view. Stay still and sit out -- It worked!

9th Jan 2019 12:30pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16857

I don't agree that there was no trivial solution! Since this problem manifested itself sometime in late 2007 when there were still nine years of production to come, it would have been very trivial to tighten the manufacturing spec for the adaptor housing, assuming that this is indeed the part which is culpable*. It might have increased the unit cost somewhat, but not by a significant amount when the overall ex-works cost is considered.

I think it is likely that JLR figured that (say) one vehicle in every thousand came back for this repair under warranty and that it made more economic sense to fix that one per thousand and let the owners cover the costs of the others. If people had started dying because of this fault, it would have been a difference story. I am not personally aware of anyone (yet) being involved in a crash as a result of the adaptor shaft failing, although it could well happen.

I suspect that the axle defect would have been treated in exactly the same way if it wasn't for the more readily apparent seriousness of your front hub breaking off. Even the TSB for this deprecatingly says that if the hub brakes off the driver may experience "a reduction in steering control" or some very similar wording. I would have been more inclined to say that the driver would experince a short period of terror and helplessness followed by a crash and possible injury or death. I believe that there have been a number of accidents as a result of this defect, so the "do nothing" approach may not have been an option.

* Given that both the MT82 gearbox and the LT230 transfer box have been in production for a long time, apparently without any dimensional issues, it does seem likely to me that it is the adaptor housing which is the major part of the problem. it would be very interesting to compare the dimensions of one from a shaft-eating vehicle and one from a non-shaft-eater.

9th Jan 2019 3:30pm

shropshiredefender

Member Since: 05 Jun 2017
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 832

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black

blackwolf wrote:
Apparently the optional "Heritage Pack" for the new Defender will include fast-wearing drive flanges and an adaptor shaft failure simulator, as well as clunky wipers and sundry leaks and rattles. It will be an extra cost factory option aimed at the grumpy old man sector.

Finally a reason to order the new "Defender"

9th Jan 2019 5:51pm

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