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ChasingOurTrunks



Member Since: 19 Aug 2020
Location: Canada
Posts: 89
I wonder what they mean by "Major international repair centres". That could mean Mercedes or BMW....or it could mean Mitas, John Deere, Caterpillar, or Fountain Tire....Either way, it's got my attention.

I don't have any experience with the BMW engine going in the Grenadier, but it seems like a reasonably typical straight 6 motor. The compression makes me raise an eyebrow as I wonder how that will work on sub-quality fuels available in some parts of the world, but time will tell on that score. I am also curious about the built-in Turbo; they have dramatically increased in reliability when the motors are designed to be turbocharged from the beginning as this one has, but I know Ford have had some issues with turbo'd engines because people drive them on highways and then park; the oil flow then stops and the hot turbo 'cooks' the oil inside it, which causes build-up and eventually they fail. Apparently, it's been really common with Fords just north of 100k kms. Instead they are supposed to be left to idle for a few minutes to cool down (From what I've read), but not many people do that.

My info on the BMW motor is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_B58

Info on the Ford Turbo issue (Hot Shut Down): https://www.bluespringsfordparts.com/blog/...r-problems


There are two barriers for bush fixes -- the need to use proprietary tools for service, and the availability of instructions. If Ineos can spec their motors with typical nuts and bolts, and if I can buy a service manual for the Grenadier for under $200, I'll be happy (or use a similar model to Toyota with a subscription service).

BMW (bikes, at least) are notoriously cagey about service manuals and proprietary tools, to the point where the aftermarket has had to come up with tools on their own, like GS911, just so that folks can do their own basic maintenance. Hopefully, Ineos's choice of powerplant won't come with this barrier. If they can stick to standard metric fasteners and provide the manuals, there's no reason I can see that shade-tree mechanics won't be able to do basic maintenance and repairs on their Grenadiers, which also opens up a ton of options for service centres and non-dealer network repairs.
Post #859371 2nd Oct 2020 5:05pm
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SteveT247



Member Since: 21 Feb 2011
Location: Central
Posts: 491
England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Bonatti Grey
Philip wrote:
Old-school manual locking diffs are a lot, lot cheaper for a manufacturer to put into something than electronically-controlled locking/limited slip ones...

No they're not, it's far cheaper to have the ECU use the brakes than it is to have to beef up the other components to handle a locked diff, that's why they're used.
Post #859373 2nd Oct 2020 5:18pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510
United Kingdom 
Eh? They are totally separate things.

If a new Defender has the optional locking rear diff, it also still has four-wheel brake-activated TC, and the driveshafts and the rest of the drivetrain are no different (just like other modern LRs).
Post #859376 2nd Oct 2020 5:26pm
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SteveT247



Member Since: 21 Feb 2011
Location: Central
Posts: 491
England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Bonatti Grey
Read your previous post (I quoted it) where you state locking diffs are cheaper.
Post #859378 2nd Oct 2020 5:28pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510
United Kingdom 
SteveT247 wrote:
Read your previous post (I quoted it) where you state locking diffs are cheaper.


Manually-locking diffs are obviously cheaper than electronically-controlled limited slip/locking diffs. Traction control via brake application is a totally different thing.
Post #859388 2nd Oct 2020 5:59pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510
United Kingdom 
Supacat wrote:

If you follow that logic the best system to not get stuck would be 2wd, as you'd know the limitations and not try driving on the grass if it looked damp. Rolling Eyes


In my experience, the best advice is not to drive into the field in the first place, that way there’s no chance you’ll be ringing for the big tractor.
Post #859392 2nd Oct 2020 6:04pm
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SteveT247



Member Since: 21 Feb 2011
Location: Central
Posts: 491
England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Bonatti Grey
I was talking about T/C/ terrain response, as your original post appeared to be also. As limited slip diffs don't require beefier components the point still stands. I'm sure we're all waiting to hear why you think it's more effective than manual locking diffs, I know I am.
Post #859393 2nd Oct 2020 6:10pm
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Philip



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: England
Posts: 510
United Kingdom 
The clear benefit is that an electronically-controlled locking/limited slip diff works in all environments and situations (including on the road), rather than just being locked or open.
Post #859394 2nd Oct 2020 6:32pm
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SteveT247



Member Since: 21 Feb 2011
Location: Central
Posts: 491
England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Bonatti Grey
I think you'll find a manual locker(s) work in all environments off road too, and they don't require loss of traction to engage.
Post #859396 2nd Oct 2020 6:46pm
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ickle



Member Since: 22 Jul 2010
Location: South Vendee
Posts: 1728
France 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alpine White
a proactive system (manual diff locks) suits drivers who are aware of the conditions and vehicle capabilities, a reactive system (abs/tc) suits the less knowledgeable or couldn't care less driver
Post #859423 2nd Oct 2020 9:05pm
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SteveT247



Member Since: 21 Feb 2011
Location: Central
Posts: 491
England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Bonatti Grey
Another reason why manufacturers fit them rather than manual locks. Thumbs Up
Post #859426 2nd Oct 2020 9:08pm
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diduan



Member Since: 13 Oct 2016
Location: Central Balkan
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Independent suspension with any kind of software control of tire slip has absolutely no advantages against live axles with mechanical lockers for off road vehicles. This is my personal opinion and experience. Don't forget the robustness of live axles and the advantage of a full case locker in terms of diff carrier strength. Defender 110 SW MY2011 2.4tdci decat, no EGR
Jeep Wrangler YJ 1990 4.0. Front 78' Dana 60, Rear CUCV 14 bolt
Post #859515 3rd Oct 2020 10:57am
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Martin
Site Admin


Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6486
United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red
Thread tidied - chill out guys.  1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top
2015 D90 XS SW
Post #859867 5th Oct 2020 8:56am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018
United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
INEOS Grenadier (@INEOSGrenadier) Tweeted:
Hitting the trail.
#Grenadier4x4 #UltimateOffroader #BuiltOnPurpose https://t.co/OnRz1vB5iT https://twitter.com/INEOSGrenadier/status/...50754?s=20



Click image to enlarge
Post #862424 19th Oct 2020 1:40pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018
United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
ChasingOurTrunks wrote:
I just watched that video myself and it inspired me to do some basic napkin math (Edit: arithmetic on the back of a serviette for you UK folks...I'm not taking notes on diapers!) and google searching to figure out what the North American prices might be for these things by using similar vehicles -- the cost of a vehicle isn't always as simple as a currency conversion, so "apples to apples" as opposed to a straight exchange rate calculation I think gives a better sense of the global market price for these rigs.

A Jeep Rubicon in the UK "Starts at" $48k GBP. The same car in Canada starts at about $52k CAD or in the USA, their place of manufacture, it's $42.5k USD.

Similarly, a G-Wagen in the UK starts at $96k GBP. Canada it's $148k CAD, and in the USA $127k USD; European made obviously.

And finally, the Defender seems to start at about $45k GBP, but adding even modest off-road accessories (that the Rubicon has included) pushes it north of $50k GBP. In the USA, they start at $50k USD and in Canada, it's over of $65k CAD. (This illustrates the idea that it's more than a simple currency conversion well - if we did just a currency conversion, the new Defender at $50k in GBP would cost about $65k in USD).

All told, the above suggests that if they are aiming for a mid-$40s GBP price tag, it should clock in at around $65k in Canada and could be as low as $50k in the USA.

They will hopefully sell a lot of these at those price points. If the interior is comparable in terms of comfort features to the New Defender, the price might make the difference for a lot of folks (myself included).


Some Canada/North America input:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/arti...owback-to/
Post #862734 21st Oct 2020 7:34am
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