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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Yes, quite happy that the replacement engine is in good condition.
Yes, will still do a complete overhaul, new pistons, rings (have to do anyway as the replacement engine still cracked 2 pistons). The replacement head will need new swirl chambers too, as they show some cracks around their nozzle. Good news is the head is perfectly flat. Will be checking valves and grind/replace as necessary. I have not opened the bottom end of either engines. No idea what to expect there. I can see that the HRC numbers (part number) for the engine blocks are different. I will post the exact HRC numbers as already forgot them. The heads however have same part number, HRC1474.

Yes, intercooling sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately I already stocked a new 19J radiator. Tdi radiator and intercooler is the easiest, but that needs chopping off the rad mounts on the chassis, which I am not in favour of. I also do not like that the 'trained' eye, and 'untrained' ear would think I have a Tdi sitting inside. So will have to figure out a more discrete installation.

As for the breather, I have a Tdi cyclone which plan to install somewhere in the line. Possibly need to add a drain somewhere, either back to the sump, or simply a catch bottle. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878388 14th Jan 2021 8:54am
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

As for the 19J pistons, partnumber that is popping up is ETC8670S for standard size (I hope that is what I need, but will check once the block is stripped).

As with most things, I can find aftermarket and OEM. Prices at time of writing are £36.09 and £63.61 (Ex VAT) respectively.

Given that the original pistons crack, is it worth spending the extra money that I know will crack. Or save the money and almost have enough for the next turn of replacement pistons in case the aftermarket crack as well?

I am sure that this will not be an everyday car, so yearly miles will be pretty low once completed. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878394 14th Jan 2021 9:14am
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Lodelaner



Member Since: 04 Feb 2010
Location: Hungerford
Posts: 438

United Kingdom 1988 Defender 90 V8 Petrol ST Shire Blue

Those are std (s) - the land rover convention is to add 20 and 40 to the end of the part number to differentiate rebore + pistons.

This site is very helpful when sourcing parts and cross referencing what you need.

https://www.lrworkshop.com/parts/ETC8670S Jonathan

@Lodelaner Instagram

Youtube greenlaning and other LR related content

Post #878402 14th Jan 2021 10:23am
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Yes, thank you Jonathan.

My question is more if I should spend the extra money on the OEM pistons, or if the aftermarket, could do the job just as good... we know that the original are not able to do a very good job.

Was reading on other forums... the 19J has a compression ratio of 21:1. Tdi have 19:1. I read that the 19J suffers due to this higher compression. The 12J were on 23:1, which was ok due to be naturally aspirated, but the 19:1 with a turbo, compressing air in during the suction stroke generates even more heat during the compression.

Intercooler will reduce the charge air temperature, but another interesting solution is to reduce the compression ratio. This would keep the engine bay look more original. True, I would loose power, but if I want to go anywhere fast, I will not use the 90. Thoughts? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878420 14th Jan 2021 11:42am
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Been thinking about the compression ratio reduction...
The original gasket is 1mm. Without going details of the calculations, to drop the compression ratio from 21:1 to 19:1, need to increase the head gasket thickness by 0.53mm, or a head gasket of 1.53mm.
Not sure if there are other materials but probably if I want to go down this route, then it would have to be made from copper. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878516 14th Jan 2021 8:19pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Just some information.

The old head is stamped with part number ETC4648
The new head is stamped with part number ETC7635

I still have to find out what the difference are. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878796 16th Jan 2021 11:39am
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shaggydog



Member Since: 12 Aug 2012
Location: Kent
Posts: 3333

United Kingdom 1991 Defender 110 200 Tdi USW Arles Blue

I would give Turner Engineering a ring they are the Land Rover Engine font of knowledge and would be able to supply all the parts you need Thumbs Up

Can get a whole rebuilt head and short engine off the shelf and all the bits you need to the original spec

https://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/ Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197

Self confessed mileage hunter Very Happy

Post #878807 16th Jan 2021 12:41pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Hello shaggydog, yes, I am very sure that Turner have all the knowledge they want on these engines.

But living outside the UK, now need to pay duty, plus a service charge to pay the duty, so I want to be careful that I do not go over the top replacing everything. Shipping complete assemblies, such as heads, will make it far too expensive. And actually, I like doing the work myself. My plan is to fully strip the engine that I bought, as it is the latest 19J, measure everything up and replace what is out of spec. What I know for sure is that I need new pistons and swirl plugs. And of course all rubbers and service items such as timing belt kit, etc. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878921 16th Jan 2021 5:52pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 3029

Ireland 

I had a 19J turbo diesel 90 for six years. I bought it new in 1990 and had it until 1996. I did an oil and filter change every 3,000 miles and I never had any bother with it. The only reason I parted with it was for family reasons and got a 200 tdi 110 to replace it. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

Post #878965 16th Jan 2021 8:19pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

The original 19J was still running, with all the internal cracks on the head and pistons. Honestly amazed that it still started and ran with no apparent issues other than being low on power. No black smoke, just a hint of white smoke though. I attributed the low power to the fact that I disconnected the connection between the turbo and the fuel pump as the diaphragm had a split, and was afraid it could make it runaway.

And actually the original 19J started on the button especially when left to sit for a while.. probably the oil leaking past the valve stem seals helped a bit Rolling with laughter

One engine every 30 years, not too bad I will not complain. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #878970 16th Jan 2021 8:34pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 3029

Ireland 

The afore mentioned 200 tdi is a 1992 reg and still on it's original engine. Regular oil and filter changes do count. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

Post #878974 16th Jan 2021 8:42pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Question: is it true that the later 19J and the 200tdi shared the same engine block? If yes, then a head gasket from a 200tdi fit a 19J? Reason for asking is because there are a variety of 200tdi head gasket thicknesses. Still pondering on reducing compression ratio to reduce the thermal stress on the engine.

Some thermodynamics calculations (not sure how correct, as been a long time since... anyhow.) the charge temperature that is compressed by 1.7 (I believe 19J turbo max boost is about 0.7bar) will be at 233dC at manifold at full boost (ambient of 25dC)

Without an intercooler, compression of 21 will raise the air temperature at full compression to over 10,300dC. Shocked
Assuming an intercooler with 50% efficiency, i.e. air at outlet is half of that it was at inlet, then at 21 CR the air temperature will get to just under 8,000dC.

Without an intercooler, but a CR of 19, at full boost, the air temperature will rise to 9,300dC.

Might loose a bit of power with a thicker gasket, however the engine will still look stock, and reduce the thermal stress on the engine. The intercooler would still give the lowest temperature though. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #880393 23rd Jan 2021 7:14pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Out of curiosity, calculated the air temperature rise for a 12J (normally aspirated) and 10J (series) that have a CR of 23. The air temperature rises to 6,500dC. No wonder why the older engines lasted. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #880395 23rd Jan 2021 7:21pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 442

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Another calculation... what CR is needed to keep max temp at 6,500dC on a 19J at full boost? Answer is CR of 13.5. That means a gasket of almost 4mm. Rolling with laughter

Note that above calculations assume no heat loss during compression of the air (perfect adiabatic compression). This is never possible, as there will be heat loss through pistons, head and bores. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

Post #880401 23rd Jan 2021 7:45pm
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LandRoverAnorak



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 8936

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Orkney Grey

Are you sure about those calcs? The temperatures you've arrived at are several times the melting point of steel Confused Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER THREAD - Instagram: @landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia

Post #880417 23rd Jan 2021 10:28pm
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