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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 11484

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Pacha wrote:
The issue is not the number of charging stations, it's the fact that it currently takes 5 minutes to fuel up including paying for it. With EV it takes hours to get a meaningful charge. Until the infrastructure is awash with high power fast charging then it is not viable for a lot of people.


Which is why, I think, a number of firms are now looking at drive in/out battery-swap solutions, with a standardised battery pack. You drive in with a flattish battery, the battery is swapped (by robot) for a fully charged one. The system has several clear benefits and disbenefits, although to the end user I feel the benefits outweigh the disbenefits. However it requires standardised battery "modules" and a standardised way of swapping them.

Personally I think the industry has a long way to go before the EV is a practical alternative of the infernal combustion engine in all private motoring situations.

Post #840683 30th Jun 2020 1:07pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 7556

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Supacat wrote:
Another option on extending range for BEVs:

“As of May 26, 2020, NIO Power has completed over 500,000 battery swaps, becoming one of NIO’s most well-received power services.

Nio’s battery swapping system can perform a fully-automatic battery swap in 3 minutes."


Click image to enlarge


https://electrek.co/2020/06/02/nio-battery...000-swaps/

Post #840686 30th Jun 2020 1:36pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 11484

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

That's the thing, it strikes me as an excellent idea. Almost instant refill, and as a vehicle owner presumably you don't have to worry about battery life.

Post #840701 30th Jun 2020 3:02pm
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Orchard



Member Since: 07 May 2015
Location: Usually walking the dog
Posts: 199

Can't wait to see it tomorrows pictures Very Happy
The copyright lawyers will be standing by Rolling with laughter
If they have only just started the factory it's at least two years from production, and there has been no mention of network or dealer infrastructure yet. Both take time and deep pockets/loans.
There has only been one non-Chinese new car company that has (so far) survived to decent sales in the last 30 years. It's going to be mighty hard to be profitable with one product and 30,000 per year. Confused 90 XS SW
1998 TD5 CSW - sold

Post #840709 30th Jun 2020 3:57pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 2420

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

Admittedly there was zero detail, but right back at the start there was mention of using agri machinery dealers for sales/servicing.

TBH, I'd be happy to order online as long as there are some good detailed independent reviews to make a judgement from, then get it serviced at my nearest John Deere place. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #840718 30th Jun 2020 4:43pm
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 23 May 2007
Location: The Land that time forgot
Posts: 989

Off Topic but carrying on about EVs From above posts

Pacha wrote:
The issue is not the number of charging stations, it's the fact that it currently takes 5 minutes to fuel up including paying for it. With EV it takes hours to get a meaningful charge. Until the infrastructure is awash with high power fast charging then it is not viable for a lot of people.


Charging speed isn’t an issue if you buy the right vehicle, the one with a huge, reliable supercharging network. On a Tesla Supercharger you can add 500 miles range in less than an hour - you can add 300 miles in the time it takes to go from the charger to the motorway cafe, use the toilets, queue for a coffee at the on site Starbucks or Cafe Nero and walk back to your car. Plan you charging around your travel breaks and it isn’t a problem I can assure you.
The biggest issue with charging if you don’t own a Telsa is the flakey alternative network - The Electric Highway is terrible, Ecotricity is as bad at customer services as JLR and you need to have a huge selection of apps and RFID cards. Ionity does better, has extremely fast chargers but they are few and far between at the moment, but again there is no way you can charge at their charging points without their special app/ card. The U.K. Govt needs to integrate the charging network - pull up at any charger and if you have an account with another energy supplier so what, touch the card reader and make a payment regardless of whose card / app you have.

Up here in Scotland we have a much better system - Chargepoint Scotland Runs a nationwide network of chargers, costs you £20 a year for the RFID card (no app needed) that also accepts cards from other suppliers and gives you free and unlimited charging for that £20. There is a good network mostly in public carparks and often if you ply into a charger then the parking is free. But even this system isn’t free of abuse - the bank of chargers nearest to Stirling Station is often taken up with cars whose owners have left their car on the charger all day even once it has fully charged while they work in some distance office. Telsa charges a fixed parking charge if you outstay you charge period on one of their chargers.

There are some excellent EV and PHEV apps showing chargers, and not just their location but whether there is already a car plugged in and if the charger is out of order. Zapp Map is one widely used app.

I recently drove the new Mini E, it’s brilliant and can’t half shift BUT BMW/Mini has way overstated its electric range - claimed is 144 miles from a 37kWh battery - real world driving in summer you are unlikely to see more than 110 miles range on the “fuel” gauge and in winter it would be more like 90 miles. Fine if you only do stop start driving in town but as soon as you want to attempt a trip of any length, forget it. As commented previously it’s this once or twice a year long trips where the smaller EV’s fail, cars like the Kia’s, Hyundai’s and Tesla’s though are getting more and more range - Tesla recently did a software upgrade to the Tesla S that increases the range to a real world 400 miles and a rapid charge time of 45 minutes.
Another thing is most EV’s are not suited to long journeys where they cannot use the regenerative braking to its best, regen contributes a lot of range if you are driving on lots of urban driving.
My Mini PHEV cost me £0.90p for 21 miles range, I could charge for free at the shops and drive home again on a full battery - ok from empty to fully charged took 3 hours but I also had a brilliant 3 cylinder turbo petrol to fall back on if I ran out of charge. 85-90% of the 8000 miles I did in 2 years ownership was purely electric motoring, I saved a fortune from not having to refill its 35litre tank too often - 11 times in two years!

Pure electric driving does require a small change in journey planning, but you soon get used to plugging in a charging while you are watching TV in the evening and most folks with EV’s do not have to recharge from empty to full every night, often it’s as little as adding 15-20% range and that happens while you are sleeping.

So why have I changed my eco Mini for a big consuming, particulate emitting New Defender and not an EV? Simple - I want to reduce to running one car - I also ran a Defender90 alongside the Mini and still have it alongside the new Defender - but there isn’t a suitable EV 4x4 on the market yet and I was originally going to wait for the L663 PHEV but have been told that it’s unlikely to come to the market before 2024, won’t be as capable offroad as the purely ICE Dfenders because so far none of the LR PHEVs has great OffRoad capability - there are all AWD vehicles with no transfer case or low ranges. Also JLR’s pricing of the present range of PHEVs makes them hugely expensive purchases. I did take a Jaguar I-Pace off-roading and it was fantastic but no low box and the model suitable for offroad use costs getting on for £80,o0p once you add the Air suspension and special all surface grip control options, but electric off-roading is great with all the instant torque that is very easily controlled. Epsom Green Tdi300 County Hard Top converted into a Station Wagon
Defender D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior with a few dealer options that replaced a totally faultless Mini Countryman PHEV


Last edited by Tim in Scotland on 30th Jun 2020 5:15pm. Edited 2 times in total

Post #840720 30th Jun 2020 4:51pm
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Race.it



Member Since: 27 Aug 2019
Location: Algeciras
Posts: 30

Spain 

If you only filled the mini 11 times did the petrol go off? I thought I heard the new e85 petrol goes off quickly now so these ev’s with Petrol engines could have hard time starting in the future with the new fuel and long time between fill ups Searching for my first Defender...and started just as Covid hit, so talk about timing.

Post #840724 30th Jun 2020 4:58pm
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 23 May 2007
Location: The Land that time forgot
Posts: 989

Was not an issue for me although during lock down I did get concerned that the lack of petrol consumption might be an issue but it wasn’t. Prior to retirement I worked at sea for 3-4 months at a time and the car sat unused outside on my drive, plugged into the 13 amp socket in my garage but totally controllable using the app over a satellite link broadband connection - meant that on winter nights at home I could set the car to warm the battery and interior from the middle of the ocean. I was more concerned that the 12v battery for the in car services might flatten but got round that by connecting up a small solar panel trickle charger even during lockdown, never had an issue with that either.
Some EV owners leave their cars for months on end at their 2nd homes overseas without issue too. You do have to condition the battery prior to such a long period of no use though,usually leaving it charged between 40 and 80% does the biz in that case and doesn’t require the car to be left on a charger. It’s often the 12v battery in EV’s that gives trouble if the car is stored for a long time, not all EV’s are capable of charging the 12v battery while parked up. Epsom Green Tdi300 County Hard Top converted into a Station Wagon
Defender D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior with a few dealer options that replaced a totally faultless Mini Countryman PHEV

Post #840726 30th Jun 2020 5:05pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 7556

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Orchard wrote:
Can't wait to see it tomorrows pictures Very Happy
The copyright lawyers will be standing by Rolling with laughter

Hope they are better than the last ones JLR used and lost on all counts.

Orchard wrote:
If they have only just started the factory it's at least two years from production

The article quoted earlier in this thread suggests late next year for customer deliveries.

Orchard wrote:
and there has been no mention of network or dealer infrastructure yet. Both take time and deep pockets/loans.

There has ~ you appear to have just missed it; but why assume it's along the same business model as JLR? From a customer point of view, many are seen more as a necessary point of friction rather than adding anything to the brand experience.

Orchard wrote:
There has only been one non-Chinese new car company that has (so far) survived to decent sales in the last 30 years. It's going to be mighty hard to be profitable with one product and 30,000 per year. Confused

Who are you thinking about and what is decent sales?
I'm guessing INEOS’s business model is not to chase JLR's volumes and corresponding level of profit it is currently enjoying. They just might know what they are doing there. Whistle

Post #840736 30th Jun 2020 5:52pm
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CDN38



Member Since: 14 Nov 2014
Location: North Vancouver
Posts: 674

Canada 2000 Defender 110 Td5 SW Bonatti Grey

I really hope they bring this to North America, if it doesn't go to the US, I doubt it would come to Canada, as we are a small market compared to the US.

I have loved to concept of this vehicle from the beginning, the development and focus has been very well thought out. Keep it simple with tried and true technology and mechanical engineering. No need to re-invent the wheel.

The photo is the perfect teaser. it's a Landrover thing...

my renovation thread:
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic40792.html

Post #840741 30th Jun 2020 6:06pm
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RDR



Member Since: 27 Apr 2018
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 249

United Kingdom 

Off Topic

we've had a little BEV car for running around and me commuting into the office for 5 years. There are specific use cases they don't suit everyone but it also requires a mindset change on range and how you "fill it up". We treat it like a mobile phone and plug it in at night or whenever there is an opportunity some people cant do this and it wont work for them. 5 years on and i honestly never bother looking or worrying about range. Very specific and im lucky to have a 32 amp charger on the drive so it all works fine.

The Eco argument is something that does wind me up with some BEV owners, clearly building them and then where you get the electric creates pollution they are not pollution free. The thing that i like is the fact it keeps the pollution in one place (the source) where hopefully it can be better addressed. Improvements in energy production are immediacy available to all BEVs regardless of age you don't have to wait for new tech to filter through the ownership chain like with ICE cars.

We had an Ipace on order but cancelled when Jaguar cocked up the deal, just about to pull the trigger again as the current I3 is due a change in Sept. D3 MY06 S - Gone but not forgotten
D4 MY12 HSE - Gone
D4 MY16 HSE Luxury - Now Sold
D5 MY19 HSE to be replaced by New Defender Smile

Post #840759 30th Jun 2020 7:15pm
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Pacha



Member Since: 23 Feb 2020
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 124

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Stornoway Grey

Tim in Scotland wrote:
.....snip.....but carrying on about EVs From above postsSo why have I changed my eco Mini for a big consuming, particulate emitting New Defender and not an EV? Simple - I want to reduce to running one car - I also ran a Defender90 alongside the Mini and still have it alongside the new Defender - but there isn’t a suitable EV 4x4 on the market yet and I was originally going to wait for the L663 PHEV but have been told that it’s unlikely to come to the market before 2024, won’t be as capable offroad as the purely ICE Dfenders because so far none of the LR PHEVs has great OffRoad capability - there are all AWD vehicles with no transfer case or low ranges. Also JLR’s pricing of the present range of PHEVs makes them hugely expensive purchases. I did take a Jaguar I-Pace off-roading and it was fantastic but no low box and the model suitable for offroad use costs getting on for £80,o0p once you add the Air suspension and special all surface grip control options, but electric off-roading is great with all the instant torque that is very easily controlled.


Thanks Tim, some stuff I was not aware of, but I remain a sceptic. I checked earlier and there are 6 Tesla Super Charger points in my locality - most are in 'pay to park' locations. I still see queue picture posted on the internet of EV vehicles waiting to charge and I remain unconvinced that we are anywhere near being able to support more use of EV's currently.

The whole carbon footprint thing is 'smoke and mirrors' with EV's - until it gets sensible and the infrastructure is more widespread etc. then I am off the list.

Appreciate your detailed reply to my off the cuff dismissal Bow down Rgds.

Chris

Post #840792 30th Jun 2020 9:27pm
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Orchard



Member Since: 07 May 2015
Location: Usually walking the dog
Posts: 199

Oh my goodness, it’s a shocker IMHO. A contrived design trying so hard to not looking like a Defender, but does, sort of. Plus a shopping trip to ‘accessories r us’. Reminds me strongly of the various Santanas. 90 XS SW
1998 TD5 CSW - sold

Post #840928 1st Jul 2020 9:42am
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Orchard



Member Since: 07 May 2015
Location: Usually walking the dog
Posts: 199

Supacat wrote:
Orchard wrote:
Can't wait to see it tomorrows pictures Very Happy
The copyright lawyers will be standing by Rolling with laughter

Hope they are better than the last ones JLR used and lost on all counts.

Orchard wrote:
If they have only just started the factory it's at least two years from production

The article quoted earlier in this thread suggests late next year for customer deliveries.

Orchard wrote:
and there has been no mention of network or dealer infrastructure yet. Both take time and deep pockets/loans.

There has ~ you appear to have just missed it; but why assume it's along the same business model as JLR? From a customer point of view, many are seen more as a necessary point of friction rather than adding anything to the brand experience.


Orchard wrote:
There has only been one non-Chinese new car company that has (so far) survived to decent sales in the last 30 years. It's going to be mighty hard to be profitable with one product and 30,000 per year. Confused

Who are you thinking about and what is decent sales?
I'm guessing INEOS’s business model is not to chase JLR's volumes and corresponding level of profit it is currently enjoying. They just might know what they are doing there. Whistle


JLR won in China against the Evoque copy, but they failed to trademark various iterations of Defender design last year.

They haven't even started putting the building up. To deliver in 18 months to customers means they'll need to be in pre-production around a year from now. Delivers will be late 22 earliest.

What is their brand development / go to market model?

INEOS say they will break even at 25,000 per year, Tesla is the only one above that, and they received hundreds of millions of dollars in grants from the US Govt. and they did have really unique proposition, brand story and go to market approach.
The car industry is massively capital intensive at any scale and enjoys really thin margins, it's a really long term game. 90 XS SW
1998 TD5 CSW - sold

Post #840963 1st Jul 2020 11:31am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 7556

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Orchard wrote:
Oh my goodness, it’s a shocker IMHO. A contrived design trying so hard to not looking like a Defender, but does, sort of. Plus a shopping trip to ‘accessories r us’. Reminds me strongly of the various Santanas.


Go on be honest and answer this question :

"Do you have skin in the game?"

Why muddy water with Evoque, your original comment was clearly aimed at this model and JLR lost the copyright for the images/sillouette. Clear and simple.

What are they so afraid of that they leave the market for utility vehicles but want to try and ensure no other company can pick up and run with it?

With regard to thin margins ~ define what this is in % terms. JLR's current forecasts are for future margins to be far from thin.

Post #841003 1st Jul 2020 1:31pm
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