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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10355

United Kingdom 
Great advice sako... best reply on the forum for a long time. Thumbs Up
Post #805307 8th Dec 2019 11:06am
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walfy



Member Since: 29 Aug 2007
Location: Frome
Posts: 2637

 
Some wise words I'll do my best to follow. I'm still very new to the sport. Went out on Fri for a session with an old Navy mate. No instruction, just to have a laugh and enjoy throwing some lead down range.
We shot the DTL range first and then went down to the woods for the English sport sections. I hit about 40% all day. Which I was happy with.
I know I'm struggling with position and acquiring a target. After 24 yrs of rifle shooting, I struggle to keep the barrels moving when I shoot. But I am getting there.
I did notice on the DTL range, trap 2 is a L-R rising. There are 7 shooting stations in a semi circle, 1-7 L-R. When in positions 5,6&7 I can hit trap 2 all day, move to position 4 and I can't hit it for toffee which really infuriates me. I have no idea why perhaps it's my lead or just my position I have no idea. But it's something I need to get on top of. 110 D250 SE HT
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RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it
VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys

Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD
Post #805313 8th Dec 2019 11:36am
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sako243



Member Since: 08 Jul 2014
Location: Wales
Posts: 1184

Wales 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Alpine White
walfy wrote:
I struggle to keep the barrels moving when I shoot. But I am getting there.


If you have your own shotgun then there's practice you can do at home for this. Sit or stand so that you can see three corners of the room (or three distinctive points). Start with the gun on one point, swing through the second and pull the trigger but don't stop until you're aiming at the third point.

Out on the grounds you can do the same thing - pick a point beyond where you would be pulling the trigger and keep the gun moving until you're aiming at it. You don't need to be exact - remember we're focusing on movement here not precision.

walfy wrote:
I did notice on the DTL range, trap 2 is a L-R rising.

You sure you're talking DTL not trench? DTL has a single trap in the middle which is oscillating left and right so should be "random" as to which direction it fires. ABT is similar except the spring is wound up and the height is oscillating too as well as the swept arc being bigger.

Personally I think all the "going-away" or fixed disciplines such as DTL, ABT, Trench, skeet etc., are great for practice but if you want to improve you should focus on sporting, you get more variety. Notably the DTL and ABT aren't really going to help you get out of your old rifle habits because they're all going away from you which is mostly about a steady gun.

A great example of this was years ago when I started shooting for the county a few of us for a laugh decided to enter the All Round county qualifiers, 25 skeet, 25 DTL, 25 ABT and 25 sporting. Historically it was dominated by the "Skeet, ABT and DTL boys" because we "sporting boys" didn't know about it until it started being hosted by a ground we shot sporting at. However first year we went up and shot it the four of us in the car were the top four at the qualifier. The skeet boys etc., would straight the skeet and DTL and score fairly highly on the ABT but "struggle" on the sporting. Conversely we went at straighted the ABT and Sporting and dropped a couple across the DTL and Skeet.

Regarding position - if you're expecting two shots to be fired (sporting stand with two clays for example) then set your stance up so that you're in the natural / relaxed position for the second shot. The first one you can always "wind" yourself up or stretch for because you've got time, but after you've fired the first shot you can then just relax and will naturally fall into position for the second shot meaning you don't have to struggle to pick up the clay. Another bad habit rifle shooting and DTL style disciplines can instill is dropping your left elbow (assuming right-handed shooter), ideally you want your elbow to be more or less horizontal - you have far more control over the gun like that. For the going away targets like DTL and so on you don't need to be as accurate sideways so that's why people tend to drop their elbow. Try both positions and you'll quickly find that you're far more in control of the barrels with the elbow up.

A second habit that can be instilled is standing quite square onto the target, now I tend to shoot quite long stocked and barrelled guns for my size but I will stand almost side-on to a target and shoot directly off my left shoulder (if shooting right handed). Standing that way I can just about crank the gun around to be pointing straight in front of me (but it's awkward) but I can twist around and still shoot targets behind me quite easily. Therefore the mid-range position is directly off my left shoulder. It doesn't work for everyone but most people I've watched and coach tend to favour my approach more than don't. Ed
82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6
95 Defender 110 300Tdi
Post #805328 8th Dec 2019 1:29pm
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walfy



Member Since: 29 Aug 2007
Location: Frome
Posts: 2637

 
The DTL range has the sunken trap in the middle but it also has 5 other traps.

1 R-L rising
2 L-R rising
3 Stright towrds me from RHS
4 High overhead away from me V FAST, I've never hit it
5 On high bank LH side slow going to RHS

I think they call it the DTL range because of the centre trap, next door range has same centre trap but the high and low house of Skeet so called the Skeet range.


Once I have my guns home, I'll try your ideas 110 D250 SE HT
110 USW SOLD
RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it
VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys

Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD
Post #805330 8th Dec 2019 1:35pm
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derbywill



Member Since: 25 Mar 2010
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 539

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Java Black
Sounds like a Universal Trench layout (UT). DTL is 1 trap that turns left to right within a certain arc. and the pegs are in a arc around the traphouse.
DTL squads have 5 shooters and only changed pegs after each has shot 5 targets from the peg they are on.

UT is 5 sunken traps and the target can come from any of these at different heights, angles and speeds but all shooters will have had the same targets over the 25 bird shoot.

Oylimpic Trap (OT) has 15 sunken traps and the 3 traps in front of you are the ones your targets come from.

Both UT and OT pegs are in a straight line. and the shooter changes peg after every shot, the squads have 6 shooters with the 6th shooter standing behind peg 1 ready to move on that peg once shooter 1 has shot.

Cheers

Will 2005 90 XS
1954 86'' Series 1 tilt
Post #805460 9th Dec 2019 1:09pm
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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7664

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey
Walfy you should be top shot on clays, you weren't with a rifle! from your own admission! Very Happy Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop
Post #805461 9th Dec 2019 1:15pm
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Huttopia



Member Since: 23 Feb 2016
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 1964

United Kingdom 
sako243 wrote:
OK had a quick skim through and some half decent advice here.

First and foremost as others have mentioned the single most important thing with shooting a shotgun is gun fit. Rifles you can adjust your body around because you're often taking one shot and not quickly. Shotguns not so - with a good gun fit it should be aiming where you are looking and you don't have to think about it. I'm not going to get into a brand wars here but I personally don't like and have never got on with Beretta's and find Silver Pigeons very barrel heavy. My competition gun is, and has been for the last decade or so, a Miroku MK38 32" Trap gun. It's been Teagued (multi-choke retrofitted) but I only ever have 5/8t and 3/4 fitted, in fact when the gun went for re-bluing about 5 years ago it took us 45 minutes to get the chokes out Embarassed. Having shot at the highest level I doubt I would spent much more than £1.5-2k on a shotgun, there's really no need. An interesting seg-way but useful for illustrating the point of gun fit: back in 2009ish I was on a course at Doveridge for CPSA coaches and we'd covered gun fit that day. After the day's instruction finished we and the instructors went out onto the ranges for a bang. A few were interested in my MK38, one of the coaches was 5ft something small and one of my fellow trainee coaches was a 6ft8 Yorkshireman. Both tried my MK38 and both shot well with it and found it fitted them (including myself obviously - being 5'9), to the point Tracey (instructor) bought one on the way home at the end of the week and the Yorkshireman was going to look into one because normally he had to chop the stock in half to lengthen it, this was the first "nice" gun he was prepared to buy to lengthen.

Secondly get your eye dominance checked (there's a really simple technique to do this yourself if you want). Eye dominance is far more important than your personal handedness. If you've never fired a shotgun before or done anything significant it will feel as awkward shooting left handed as right handed. If you are left eye dominant even if you are right handed I would recommend learning to shoot left handed. If you shoot right handed you will either have to close one eye or compensate depending on what direction the target is moving. Closing one eye is simpler but means you lose depth perception which is rather crucial. The alternative of compensating is possible but requires a skilled shooter - ergo you have a chicken and egg situation here...

Thirdly - "forget" lead you're going to get people saying you're missing behind it, in front of it, over the top, etc., by and large you will be but not because you've got the lead wrong, you'll almost certainly have poor technique first, sort that out (happy to offer some advice). By technique I mean how you hold the gun, picking up targets, body stance, etc. Fluid motion of the gun and correct body stance is more important than worrying about lead when you're learning. Once you have those nailed then lead is easy to teach, getting someone to keep changing the lead picture with poor technique just confuses matter.

Fourthly - you're going to have ups and downs, don't worry about it, enjoy it and keep at it, it'll come. Important rule to remember, very few people can make money or are self-sufficient in shooting, so therefore you're doing it as a hobby. If you're not enjoying it what's the point?!

I'm going to buck the trend with the advice given here - yes having a local shoot is great for learning the basics and having somewhere regular to go. But the best way to improve your shooting is to see a variety of different targets, local clubs have a tendency to put up similar targets the whole time - not always their fault but sometimes the ground limits what targets can be presented. I was lucky when I learnt to shoot that my teacher had been Welsh champion for circa 10 years on the trot and between us we ran the local shoot and had a reputation for setting tasty targets.

Cost wise they've been fairly well summed up - but don't be surprised when things start racking up. I have no idea what a SGC costs - since I renewed mine a while ago and as I have both FAC and SGC they get a discount when renewed together. Shotgun is basically what you want to spend, anything from free to 10s of millions are possible (have a family friend who have a one of a kind Purdey which, if ever went to auction, Christies suggested a reserve of 750k, expecting it to go into the millions if the right people were interested).

Annual local club memberships are typically £20-100 depending on the kind of ground. Bear in mind most clubs also like you to be a member of the CPSA, WCTSA, BASC etc., which might add another £100 per annum but does provide insurance for you.

Ammunition and shoot entry will be the biggest expense, local club shoots down my way are 40-bird days, £7 / head but you do get a pub meal (stew, bangers & mash, fish and chips kind of thing). Then you've got cartridges, they can vary massively but when I started shooting years ago I was around the £100 / 1000 ballpark, now I'm paying ~£230 / 1000. Slight change in cartridge but even the stuff I shot before is still around the £180 / 1000. If you want to try out the bigger shoots etc., then costs can rack up significantly. When I was shooting a lot I'd be averaging about £250 / weekend by the time you factored in ammo, fuel, food, entry etc.

If you want some scary costs then in 2007 when I shot the Worlds representing Wales I'd shot circa 30k cartridges that year, the trip out to the states came in at about £8k I think all in, of which I had to fund more than half of it even after sponsorship etc. Thankfully because of my parents and a bit of money saved up I could go out there and thoroughly enjoyed it, but it was a kick in the teeth financially for a 19 year old...

If you've got any questions fire them over and I'll do my best to answer them remotely Laughing


Top answer Sako. Seeing how easy kids find shooting is interesting, they don't think about it, they haven't been coached to within an inch of their lives, and they just enjoy it. There's a lot to be said for being relaxed and keeping it simple.
Post #805496 9th Dec 2019 5:37pm
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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7664

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey
my children pistol shoot far far better than me. their starting point wasnt great though. they have taken to practice and coaching well. (only air pistols mine) Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop
Post #805518 9th Dec 2019 7:33pm
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Huttopia



Member Since: 23 Feb 2016
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 1964

United Kingdom 
Yep, I stood with my 12 year old on the peg on Saturday and he shot far better than me. 3 for 4 on one drive. Obviously I berated him about the fourth...🤦‍♂️😁
Post #805523 9th Dec 2019 7:40pm
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walfy



Member Since: 29 Aug 2007
Location: Frome
Posts: 2637

 
jst wrote:
Walfy you should be top shot on clays, you weren't with a rifle! from your own admission! Very Happy


I was an Engineer, if it came to the point where I had to shoot, things had gone wrong, as a searcher I had an Infantry cordon around me while I looked for stuff that was going to go bang. After that I was either building bridges or blowing Censored up. No need to shoot.
And yes, by my own admission, I couldn't hit a barn door at 5 paces Rolling with laughter 110 D250 SE HT
110 USW SOLD
RRE HSE Dynamic Gone, wife killed it
VOLVO XC60 R Dynamic with some toys

Polaris RZR 900XP SOLD
Post #805829 11th Dec 2019 5:21pm
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