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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 326

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green
Swivel pin housings - differences?

Hello boys and girls, I appear to have possibly made a bit of a faux pas Embarassed

I bought a front axle from a 2010 Defender earlier in the year, to replace my 1989 early type axle on a 110, due to the desire to use the wider front radius arms.


Click image to enlarge


It has now been wire-brushed and grit blasted, and painted up ready to provide many years of use. I also have had the differential rebuilt by Ashcroft, with a Ashcroft locking differential, and Ashcroft heavy duty half-shafts and CV joints.

Now I was aware that the early swivel housings differed to the late type in that the early type (1987->1993) used oil instead of grease inside to lubricate the CV, and as such had a drain plug and a level plug in addition to the fill plug.

I had naively assumed that other than the plugs, the swivel pin housings were identical. However when I look at the LRWorkshop site, there is a bewildering array of part numbers - and I am questioning if I need to get later model swivel pin housings.

Borrowing images from LRWorkshop:

The early type (1987->1993):
https://www.lrworkshop.com/diagrams/land-r...0455_52606

Click image to enlarge

1: FRC4838/FRC4840 Housing-swivel pin, RH
Superseded by: FTC2528/FTC2530
1: FRC4839/FRC4841 Housing-swivel pin, LH
Superseded by: FTC2529/FTC2531

The middle type (1994->2006):
https://www.lrworkshop.com/diagrams/land-r...0456_52607

Click image to enlarge

1: FTC3308/FTC3310/FTC5298 Housing-swivel pin, RH
1: FTC3309/FTC3311/FTC5297 Housing-swivel ping, LH
18: FTC3154 Front Stub Axle


The late type (2007 -> 2016):
https://www.lrworkshop.com/diagrams/land-r...sing_44788

Click image to enlarge

1: FTC5297 With Redundant Steering Arm, Housing-swivel pin, LH
1: FTC5298 With Redundant Steering Arm, Housing-swivel pin, RH
15: FTC3154 Front Stub Axle


The good news is that there is a single part number for the later type Stub Axle, so that part is sorted.


My questions are:

(1) What changed between the mid and late type components on the front axle? The images look the same, but the part numbers are all different.

(2) Can the early type swivel pin housing be used with the later type stub axles and other parts?

(3) Why are there so many part numbers for the mid-type swivel pin housings? I understand there is a RH and LH one, but there seems to be three different types of each of these which is confusing me.


If I need to, I can purchase new swivel pin housings, but at over £500 (new) they are pretty expensive, and have not yet been able to find them second hand on ebay.

Cheers!
Chris. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #786872 14th Aug 2019 10:13pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 9847

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

I can't really help with your question, but in case you don't already have enough to worry about, remember that the ends are prone to breaking off some front axles of that sort of age, resulting in what JLR conservatively describe as a reduction in control. Sad

Post #786881 14th Aug 2019 11:26pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 326

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Yes thanks Blackwolf - filling me with confidence Razz

I was already aware - the welds look good to me on this one, but I'll be fitting those brackets as well for added insurance. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #786884 14th Aug 2019 11:48pm
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oneten110



Member Since: 02 Jul 2011
Location: Auvergne
Posts: 523

France 

I'm not sure this will answer your questions directly but my front axle casing is a 300 tdi era unit. Fitted with early type swivel housings and the early stub axles. Incidentally, the early swivel housings are fitted with 3 plugs, filler, drain and level.However it is fitted with mid type swivels. The reason for this Censored is to enable the fitment of the earliest type, larger CV joints and deeper drive flanges, but enabling the fitment of swivels with roller bearings top and bottom. It gets more complicated because it is also fitted with a 4pin diff. Thus the half shafts are an Ashcroft special. The early stub axles are marginally longer than the later type which necessitates the fitment of earlier hubs, these have the wheel bearings slightly further apart than the later types, the thrust washers and the lock washers are a different design as well. The earlier mid life swivel housings were still fitted with filler and drain plugs because when they first came out the swivels were still oil filled. Presumably at some point when grease replaced oil, the drain plug was deleted. Thus explaining 2 out of the 3 part nos to cover this era, at some point during all of this, around 1996 I think, the method of adjusting/retaining the wheel bearings changed as well.
Did any of that make sense/help you in any way? It is not a Defender, it is a One_Ten

Post #786885 15th Aug 2019 12:03am
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NickMc



Member Since: 01 Oct 2014
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 858

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

The bolt pattern offset on the actual “swivel balls” is most likely different between early and late, among many other differences. There’s also a thick seal (early) and thin seal (late). The very early axles will have had a railko Bush too not bearings like the later ones.

Post #786891 15th Aug 2019 12:30am
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Retroanaconda



Member Since: 04 Jan 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1569

Scotland 

Swivel ball bolt pattern is the same on all axles so you can just bolt the whole swivel assembly onto your later axle casing. Diff pattern likewise- although you may need to replace some of the diff studs depending on the age of the diff itself.

I have a 300Tdi casing with 200Tdi swivels/hubs on mine.

You can mix and match swivels and hubs to, but the swivel ball needs to match the swivel housing (i.e. railko type or bearing type) and the stub axle and hub needs to match the CV joint and half-shaft/diff.

Post #786925 15th Aug 2019 9:48am
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oneten110



Member Since: 02 Jul 2011
Location: Auvergne
Posts: 523

France 

NickMc wrote:
The bolt pattern offset on the actual “swivel balls” is most likely different between early and late, among many other differences. There’s also a thick seal (early) and thin seal (late). The very early axles will have had a railko Bush too not bearings like the later ones.

The swivel seal has been the same throughout production, as has the bolt pattern on the swivels

When checking the part Nos for the mid life swivel housings, FTC3310 and 3311 come up as not known, whilst FTC3308 and 3309, default to Ftc5297/5298. Thus suggesting that Land Rover had a rationalisation. It is not a Defender, it is a One_Ten

Post #786942 15th Aug 2019 12:12pm
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NickMc



Member Since: 01 Oct 2014
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 858

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

They’re not all the same and very early axles have a thicker seal and different retainer ring.

Post #786949 15th Aug 2019 12:37pm
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oneten110



Member Since: 02 Jul 2011
Location: Auvergne
Posts: 523

France 

From 1984 parts list: part No FRC2889. When you enter that number in a parts finder, this is the result you get.
https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/416...er_classic

from 2007 on Defender parts list: part No FTC3401, this is the result you get
https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/416...r_classic.

Both part Nos have been replaced by LR059968. Thus the seals are the same.

I will give you that the retaining ring has changed from.
https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/116...__defender
to
https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/101...iscovery_1 It is not a Defender, it is a One_Ten

Post #786971 15th Aug 2019 1:46pm
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dorsetsmith



Member Since: 30 Oct 2011
Location: South West
Posts: 3407

571890

Discovery 1 - All models to (VIN) JA032850 - 12.5mm without anti-lock brakes -
Range Rover Classic - All models to (VIN) HA610293 (1190 approx.) - 12.5mm without anti-lock brakes
Oil seal Inner diameter 118mm Thickness 13mm


FTC3401 = FRC2889 = LR059968 Oil seal Inner diameter 120mm Thickness 9mm

Post #786976 15th Aug 2019 2:11pm
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oneten110



Member Since: 02 Jul 2011
Location: Auvergne
Posts: 523

France 

The question referred to Defender. So, oddly enough, I looked up the parts lists for the 90/110 and Defender. Apparently the swivel seals on a series are different as well. Quelle surprise It is not a Defender, it is a One_Ten

Post #786983 15th Aug 2019 3:20pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 326

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Lots of great information, thank you all for your replies.

I see that I have more research to do then - the information about the different length stub axles was particularly valuable.

Looking at the invoice from Ashcrofts for the front axle parts, I have:

Heavy duty front halfshafts (23 spline CV type)
Late drive flanged, part no. 859
Late style CV joints (CVL)

which is all to match the late type axle, so I think I will just get all the parts to match the late type. However I would like to use the double nut and locking tab to secure the hub on, as opposed to the newer stake nut, but hopefully that's a simple case of getting a couple of nuts and a lock washer. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #787095 15th Aug 2019 10:35pm
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NickMc



Member Since: 01 Oct 2014
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 858

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

Yep you can swap over to the double nut, don’t buy the cheapest nuts and washers as they’re a poor fit and quality- I buy them in 10’s as handy to have in your stock.

I think possibly the CV with the abs tone ring doesn’t fit properly inside one of them from memory too. I think the reason I remember is having to work out why it was binding on one that some else had repaired.

Then you get into aftermarket cv shafts and the quality control on them too Shocked

Post #787102 15th Aug 2019 10:47pm
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