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Chopperone



Member Since: 13 Nov 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 253

United Kingdom 

There are numerous factors that are patently not right with Govt thinking on this subject:
1.) Our electric infrastructure is wholly inadequate to charge vehicles and/or distribute power around the countryside.
2.) I am not sure how many cars there are in the UK but a quick Google suggests 31m. Total world production this year for cars is approx 71m.
Assuming the rest of the world don't want ANY cars it would still take 2.5 years for all cars to be swapped over.
Current production of cars takes place in factories designed for petrol/diesel production.

The only really benefit to me for a driverless/electric car is IF I can jump in & let it take me to/from the pub or dinner.
If it is truly driverless what does it need me for? Pubs/restaurants could have a number of vehicles that they use to fetch/return customers - surely this must be the ultimate goal for driverless vehicles ( shared transport/ zero accidents/no theft of vehicles/no driving offences/full use of indicators).

as previously mentioned - if I want to go out for the evening either we get a taxi or we take turns to drive - I can't wait for the truly driverless car but I will still have my petrol & diesel cars. May your life be like toilet paper ; long & useful.

Post #734222 11th Oct 2018 2:51pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

I'm a project manager in in this field so spend a lot of time talking and thinking about this stuff. The feeling is very much that the average person will not want their own car once Uber like networks of autonomous cars become avaialble. Just tell an App where you want to go, a pod will arrive at your location and deposit you at your destination. For some people this will be a temendous development. It could revolutionise the lives of anyone who is currently medically restricted from driving for example. Perhaps not so good if you are a career taxi driver. Clearly the focus is on improving things in the big cities and I don't think we really know what is going to happen for those who live in less densely populated areas. More traditional cars, self driving or otherwise, will probably be around for longer.

No real thought is given to the use of cars for the fun of it, as far as I'm aware. The comparison with horses is probably a good one. Trackdays and Pay and Play sites might be a good thing to invest in! The roads are thought of as an enabler to the economy, a means to move goods and people to where they can earn or spend money. The big question is how fast the transition will be, that really isn't clear I don't think. Should that transition be lead by the public sector, who own and operate infrastructure, or the competing tech giants who have the big ideas and will all tell you their solution is the best?

A big issue is the minefield that is the period when we have a mix of old fashioned cars, semi autonomous stuff, and fully autonomous. An interesting point we were discussing the other day.... The obvious assumption is that autonomous vehicles will be programmed to avoid collsions at all costs. What happens once pedestrians figure this out? Will they just walk out into traffic when they want to cross the road, knowing the passing cars will courteously stop to allow them to cross safely? Imagine the gridlock in busy cities if this were the case.

With regard to capacity of our electric infrastructure, I understand National Grid were asked specifically by the governement to look at this, and are confident there is the capacity to service a transition to mostly electric cars. My opinion is that this will come with demand managment through smart meters so that cars a mostly charged at times when there is most spare capacity.

Finally, a good example of how quickly things can change. These photos are just 13 years apart. Spot the car in the first one, and spot the horse in the second one.




Click image to enlarge
 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #734229 11th Oct 2018 3:35pm
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seriesonenut



Member Since: 19 Nov 2014
Location: Essex
Posts: 531

United Kingdom 

Well I am pleased I am not Mr Average and I do not look forward to be driven about in an electric thingy!
Seriously I get the point about cities and urban areas, its obvious the population has outgrown the existing public transport infrastructure and the move to electric will supplement this and reduce inner city pollution.

Maybe we are the last generation to take it for granted we have unlimited range, freedom to choose how and when we move about.

There is another factor in this, the oil revenue for many countries is based on fossil fuels and unless they can find a way of replacing revenues they will not give up easily.

I worry we in the UK will once again go OTT on this, do the right thing etc (like every other bit of EEC Legislation) despite many other countries carrying on and not limiting personal freedoms and choice

Bottom line I hope I am going to be too old to feel the maximum impact of this and till then I will continue to trundle about in a 60 year old car /defender till the fuel runs out....... Thumbs Up 2010 XS USW
1957 Series One 88 diesel
1958 Series One 88 4x2

Post #734240 11th Oct 2018 5:05pm
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Slideywindows



Member Since: 09 Sep 2016
Location: Essex
Posts: 611

England 

I'm too old to give a monkeys.

I'll let you young guys do all the worrying.

Post #734243 11th Oct 2018 5:16pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

I should add, I’m not saying I agree with the way it’s going, just that’s how I see it at work. The trouble is, the simple fact is there are too many vehicles making too many journeys for current network capacity, so something needs to change. I give up with fast cars because it’s nearly impossible to enjoy them on the road any more.

I actually think this could be good thing for petrol heads in the long run. Once it becomes a minority leisure activity, hopefully
the regulators and tax collectors will look elsewhere, leaving us to enjoy our archaic machines just like folk with horse and carts or traction engines do now. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #734245 11th Oct 2018 5:34pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 8915

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

I think the underlying problem is that there are too many people and they are procreating without restraint, however this seems to be a subject about which the human race is in denial.

Post #734252 11th Oct 2018 6:02pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

Theres definitely some truth in that, although the U.K. population growth hasn’t been that extraordinary compared to some places. I do think it’s more to do with the the cheap availability of cars, meaning most who want one can get one, combined with a trend for people to travel more and further for both work and pleasure. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #734258 11th Oct 2018 6:45pm
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Tommo



Member Since: 19 Dec 2013
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 597

United Kingdom 2006 Defender 90 Td5 Black LE Java Black

I was going to write a long response about how this whole EV situation makes me cringe and how uninterested i am at having such a vehicle.

Anyway....i cant be bothered.
Long live the noisy smelly polluting defender that i drive Thumbs Up

Post #734263 11th Oct 2018 6:55pm
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OsloBlue



Member Since: 14 Jul 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 305

United Kingdom 2003 Defender 110 Td5 XS CSW Oslo Blue

I used an uber Once. ONCE. The bloke couldn't speak English and Couldn't drive, it was so bad that it would have probably been safer if a heavily intoxicated me drove...

Honestly transport in london is so bad.

[list]
Driving takes too long and costs too much
Tube and trains are too expensive (£2k annually) and are rammed full of people, half of which are nutcases, thats when they're not on strike about people being rightfully sacked.
The buses are rammed with even more nutters, and is even slower than the train.
Taxis cost too much.
Ubers are all nutters who will rape and kill you
Boris bikes will get you killed
Walking fills your lungs fill of crap and takes too long...
[list=]

the fact of the matter is that they're encouraging Public transport, but its too uncomfortable, costs too much, always late, always on strike over trivial Censored , and they haven't upgraded any of the infrastructure properly in line with usage in decades. the older tube and rail stock were never designed to have standing passengers, and even the upgraded stock like the S stock and class 345 have sacrificed 30% of their seating to accommodate a 70% standing ideology, which is great in london where you only want to hop on and hop off, but when it takes you nearly 50 mins to get into liverpool street is a fu*king laughing stock, i'm paying £2k a year for it ha! Current: TD5 '110 "Lucinda"
Previously: Disco 3/4 2010 Manual, BMW 325D SE, '08 Nissan Pathfinder, '08 Nissan Navara, '08 Focus ST, '97 Vectra track car.

Post #734269 11th Oct 2018 7:05pm
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MineRover



Member Since: 05 Apr 2015
Location: Essex
Posts: 10

United Kingdom 1987 Defender 90 200 Tdi CSW Alpine White

An interesting debate and one that will run and run, there is no doubt that there are more vehicles on the road my journey to work over the last 10 years has got a lot more stressful. I don't however believe that the single answer is autonomous vehicles.

I find the BBC report laughable in its thought that taxi fares will drop from an example £10 to £1, think back to the adverts of the 1950's saying that by the 1980's electricity would be free with Nuclear power and look how that turned out! Laughing

There is money in fossil fuel and money to be made in electric vehicles and when there is money at stake there will always be problems and conflict.

I for one am not prepared to give up my personal transport, I am prepared to accept the traffic and take the rough with the smooth. Unfortunately we are becoming a city centric country just look at the mass media they seem to forget we don't all live in the city.

Post #734300 11th Oct 2018 9:46pm
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Rashers



Member Since: 21 Jun 2015
Location: Norwich
Posts: 1539

United Kingdom 2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

I think the question about capacity and infrastructure was asked at the wrong level. The issues are with the DNO's. The people who dig the roads up not the people who own the pylons. Electrical infrastructure in towns and city's and villages is not going to be capable of charging massive amounts of vehicles. It wasn't designed for it so it's not their fault. Let's face it, there are plenty of yes men in upper management that know by the time this becomes an issue, they will be retired on a big fat pension and it will be some other poor sods problem to stand up in front of Parliamet and explain why half of the U.K. Power supply failed. Poor badly maintained electrical infrastructure caused a massive outage in America about 25 odd years ago. Half of America in darkness. It could and can happen.

A solution would be individual photo voltaic installations charging battery packs in homes during the daytime and then back feeding the power to charge the car up at night. Tesla are already selling something that will do this. Sadly, it would only work in some homes with the correct facing roof, no tree shade and a house big enough to house the batteries.

Now, how environmentally sound masses and masses of batteries are is up for debate. We also need to be aware that batteries have an infinite life, will need to be replaced fairly regularly and will need to be recycled correctly, not shoved out to India which is where most of our surpluses IT seems to go poisoning the people and the environment.

Another concern is whether the world has enough resources for the production of all these batteries?

Post #734303 11th Oct 2018 10:11pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1344

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

The suggestion is that home batteries could come from electric cars. Apparently once they have degraded to the point where they are no good for a car, they still hold enough capacity to be useful in homes. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #734319 12th Oct 2018 7:06am
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grafty99



Member Since: 15 Aug 2012
Location: North Devon
Posts: 3429

United Kingdom 2002 Defender 90 Td5 HT Caledonian Blue

Living in a rural area I have to ask the question.

Would you be able to hook up a tri axle Ifor Williams flat bed trailer to your self driving pod, then tell it to drive down a single narrow track lane to the builder's merchant (hoping you don't meet another self driving pod and then having one of them reverse to a passing place, which might be closer to the pod with the trailer)

Then take you back and drive across a couple of fields to deliver said materials. Then once that's been done take the trailer back to the yard (how close would the self driving pod let the trailer get to things? The entrance is tight for example)

Self driving pods. May become a thing in cities but I think the internal combustion engine (or at least manually controlled EVs) will remain at the forefront in rural areas for quite a while yet. 2002 90 Td5 Station Wagon
1990 Vogue SE
Triumph Tiger Explorer 1200
Defender Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic50767.html
RRC Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic54492.html
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Post #734321 12th Oct 2018 7:15am
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Mike c



Member Since: 11 Aug 2017
Location: Maldon, Essex
Posts: 204

2004 Defender 90 Td5 CSW Belize Green

All these ideas about new transport networks/electric this/battery that/always using public transport etc are always from the city where it could work. Anywhere outside, it becomes a lot more impractical in reality.

Post #734322 12th Oct 2018 7:25am
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landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 3232

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver

As long as they create change, they earn money, and that is what they want.

Andy

Post #734324 12th Oct 2018 7:40am
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