 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > EGR Delete, yes or no, the on-going debate. |
 
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765   
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I've been mulling over this one as I plan to tackle (as per another thread) a remap, intercooler, hoses (and perhaps SS Sport exhaust) upgrade. Obviously EGR blanking/removal is a common 'more-power' mod, so I thought I'd look it up. Read quite a few articles and general responses seemed to be
a. DIY, boy-racer, mods forum: Yes, do it, more power b. Science/Mechanic based: No, don't do, no increase in power, loss in MPG, worse for environment Here's one of the more interesting (apparently) knowledge/science based theories: http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/2012/0...you-money/ I don't care for the money, we all know you shouldn't drive a Def if MPG is really that important, but I do care a little about the environment, and if the power gains are negligible to nil, I think I'll leave it in and save the NOX being pumped into the air. Were we talking 10% I might consider it, as I do still help the environment in other ways to assuage my guilt, but for little or none, not worth it. Unless some evidence arrives to dramatically change this opinion, the EGR stays. Let the debate begin  Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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9th Apr 2018 3:02pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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Yes, of course, legality aside
It does seem to be the argument for me that because the EGR doesn't in fact function when you're 'giving it the beans' but only when the engine is at lower throttle/efficiency, that converting exhaust gases and filling the chamber, plus burning extra fuel and NOX, can only be seen as a wise thing and that when BHP matters it is not in use anyway. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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9th Apr 2018 3:22pm |
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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2664  
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Watching with interest as I have a noisy (intermittent) EGR.
My EGR was less noisy for a new air (and fuel) filter following a service, but I'm still viewing it with suspicion, and considering options... Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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9th Apr 2018 3:38pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19579
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The EGR isn't fit for use in my honest opinion, shut it off and run fuel additive.
I bet it runs cleaner and more efficient like this than before, performance is just an extra gain. Plus you don't need a new IC if with your tune unless you want to go 155+ HP. I.e. A 170 Hp tune. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧 |
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9th Apr 2018 4:33pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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^^^ 170bhp of course. Plus airbox mod, new hi-perf air filter, and perhaps (eventually) larger turbo. Also, average summer temps here are 30c+ and even just my route to/from work includes 30kms of uphill driving with almost 1000m+ gain. So a lot of throttle open, air-sucking, hot engine action!!
Interesting thoughts on EGR removal but with fuel additive. Interesting thinking. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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9th Apr 2018 4:49pm |
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| Zed Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: In the woods Posts: 3021 
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In my opinion people that remove parts designed to reduce pollution are no better than those who dump chemicals in waterways, flytip, burn tyres etc.
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9th Apr 2018 5:06pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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Standard tune, and a working EGR.
Last year my original EGR became much more noisy than before, so had my main dealer (oops sorry, retailer  ) preventitively put a new EGR. Was not even really expensive job, and new one works very quietly. If I have to do this every 6 to 9 years, not a big deal to avoid possible issues with MIL light coming on all the time as sometimes happens when people are deactivating the EGR. More power? Why would a brick like a Defender need more than 122HP and 360Nm? It suits its character I think.
Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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9th Apr 2018 5:38pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765
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Zed, Perhaps, but some of these manufacturer upgrades are designed to pass tests that are often poo-pooed by industry experts, not necessarily be more enviro friendly in the long-run. (Not that I am saying that is the case here). But a number of the arguments I didn't include in the link were those who feel that the EGR actually clogs up the engine with soot, thereby making it less efficient, thereby burning more fuel and therefore in the long-run being ultimately less eco. I have no mechanical or scientific training to say one way or t'other, nor do those who believe this to be the case offer any evidence as to how long it would take for the dirty engine to ultimately become less enviro friendly than one with the EGR blanked. One could also argue that anyone really worried about the environment shouldn't be driving a Def or indeed diesel at all, and perhaps should look at other areas ro improve their eco-credentials as well. Chamonix has a lot of fashionable, but ultimately ill-informed tree huggers who like to attack the local Defender drivers, and those of similar oil-burning 4x4 varieties, yet whom happily use 2000-3000l of the worst quality oil, burned through a 30 year old burner, with unfiltered emissions to heat their houses and water, all backed up by open-wood fires that burn 3-4hrs every night (or more) for four months. I on the other hand have changed my HW/heating to gas, supplemented by solar panels, have changed our fire to bioethanol and spent a frigging fortune making our 150 year old farmhouse as insulated as possible. Further, we changed Mrs Grenadier's car from a 15 year old mini, to a petrol Euro 5, car share four of our days to/from work with friends and colleagues, rarely drive when in Cham, walk and cycle often, take shared transfers (rather than drive) to the airport etc etc. You get the picture. I think my eco credentials are OK and the very fact there is so much debate over the uses of the EGR and little or no empirical evidence to favour one camp or the other, makes a comment about being no better than a river-polluter or tyre burner, a little harsh
 Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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9th Apr 2018 5:49pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816
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Gren, you still could do better. Pompe à chaleur géothermique for instance.
Like we will do in the new house as of coming summer.  But the open fire place remains of course as our village has an excess of forests with ample fire wood available and even a free real X-mas three for every house every year.
Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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9th Apr 2018 5:59pm |
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| roel Member Since: 08 Aug 2009 Location: Lelystad Posts: 2039  
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I read the ariticle and my EGR valve stays were it is too, in the parts bin.
 I think this article is written for petrol engines not diesels. Roel
1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001) 1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009) 2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts. 2003 90 Td5 (2009-now) |
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9th Apr 2018 6:21pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720 
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The main reason for disabling them is to stop the intake tract getting clogged up with carbon and sludge, which if left to build up probably makes the engine even more dirty.
Disabling or removing the EGR is illegal in the UK. It's illegal to disable emissions control systems which were required to meet type approval. That being said it's unlikely you'd get caught. |
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9th Apr 2018 8:15pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19579
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When those who who heartedly support the nuiscence that is the EGR have an earlier engine replacement due I'm sure the cost will easily be absorbed.
As well as the additional loss of MPG over thousands of miles. When the specs came back emissions were neigh similar using the Millers fuel additive to running without and active EGR. I see no reason why the additives shouldn't be compulsory. (Not just what is currently applied at refineries). I also beg to differ that EGR's are cheap and they are a pain in the backside to change. I had no end of troubles with mine, with the MIL inc springing up 10 days before MOT due. Changed it myself, (typical free labour, even more cost if I didn't.) And then 6months later, even more issues again by this stage more MIL and I'd had enough. Now I have in my view a cleaner, more efficient, higher MPG, cooler running, more efficient engine. The maps are designed to take maximum advantage of the high fuel quality we have, further increased by running the additive. It creates a far more efficient and cleaner burn. Whilst diesels do indeed produce more particulates petrols add higher levels of greenhouse gasses. As mentioned, those who are that concerned about their green credentials should consider getting a Fiat 500 with a solar powered heater living in a caravan. Many of us Defender owners actually put a lot into the environment by nature, far off-setting the carbon footprint with tree planting and various other incentives and areas covered. LED lightbulbs, in the Home and on the Defender help.  Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧Last edited by custom90 on 9th Apr 2018 9:17pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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9th Apr 2018 9:00pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971 
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My EGR valve died at about 20k miles, and I was faced with two options.
1) replace the part every 20k (or so) miles, with the associated cost and labour. 2) disable the part, keep a bit of muck out of the engine and slightly increase fuel economy. Option 2 cost less in the short term and much less in the long term. From an emissions perspective, EGR decreases NOx output whilst increasing fuel consumption, CO2 and particulate outputs. If you're worried about global warming, and if you aren't you should be, then the last three things on that list are the concerning things. If you're an asthmatic in a big city then perhaps NOx emissions matter a bit more to you. I do my best to avoid big cities, and in fact I don't think I've ever driven in one of the top 100 in the UK. On a petrol engine, it's true that an EGR can improve fuel economy because you're reducing pumping losses. Diesel engine don't, as a rule, have throttles although apparently my uncle's VW has one in the exhaust that's broken (?!). |
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9th Apr 2018 9:13pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19579
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I do strongly believe retaining the CAT is a good thing, regardless of possible performance gains though.
But that is a whole new kettle of fish all together. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧 |
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9th Apr 2018 9:19pm |
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