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mikeh501

Member Since: 07 Jan 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1142

id considered putting my isolator on the outside of the vehicle near the winch a a safety aid; "just in case" etc. However i put mine inside the cab for 2 reasons.

1. security. i can isolate the winch when not in use both for safety in that i have to consciously "turn it on/off" and security in case someone tries to engage it when the vehicle is parked. I read some horror story on the internet about some cretin putting the winch hook on the tow bar and engaging the winch! probably an old wives tale but hey.

2. safety. i put the isolator close to the batteries so that in the event of short circuit it can be isolated. If you have a longer run between the battery and isolator then obviously there is more risk. An answer may be a fuse, but typically you dont fuse a winch cable as the amperage can be very high.

8th Dec 2015 12:14pm

VeeTee

Member Since: 06 Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1512

Understand that, but,

Re #1. The isolator switch will be in the mudstuff box in the wing, which is closed with a key. So it would be difficult to operate the isolator switch, as also for a stranger you would have to know is there in the locked box.

Re #2. The cable run from battery to starter is already there. It needs only a very short run from starter to wingbox, say less than 0.5 m. (Very) well protected agains chafing etc. I do not see a great risk here.

Or do I overlook something obvious? Cheers, Vincent
1959 Polynorm 1/4 Ton Trailer, Olive Drab Green (sold)
1970 M416 Military Trailer (Camping Trailer Conversion), Epsom Green (sold)
1975 Series III 88 V6, Light Green (sadly sold)
1996 Defender 110 CSW 300 Tdi, Epsom Green (sold)
2000 Freelander 1 TD4 3-drs, Silver (sold)
2006 Freelander 1 TD4 5-drs Facelift Automatic, Tonga Green (sold)

MySite

8th Dec 2015 1:21pm

mikeh501

Member Since: 07 Jan 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1142

there is no "right" answer. i dong have a wingbox and my cable runs to the winch go direct to the battery. YMMV etc etc.

8th Dec 2015 2:03pm

VeeTee

Member Since: 06 Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1512

OK, cheers

Cheers, Vincent
1959 Polynorm 1/4 Ton Trailer, Olive Drab Green (sold)
1970 M416 Military Trailer (Camping Trailer Conversion), Epsom Green (sold)
1975 Series III 88 V6, Light Green (sadly sold)
1996 Defender 110 CSW 300 Tdi, Epsom Green (sold)
2000 Freelander 1 TD4 3-drs, Silver (sold)
2006 Freelander 1 TD4 5-drs Facelift Automatic, Tonga Green (sold)

MySite

8th Dec 2015 2:16pm

Hairysteve

Member Since: 15 Jun 2015
Location: Surrey
Posts: 692

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Barolo Black

mikeh501 wrote:

One thing I regularly see on some forum posts is using weak 50-75a split charge VSR's and then putting a winch in their which effectively will pull much more through the VSR.

Hi Mike, I found another thread of yours around winching and a VSR but cant get my head around why when pulling from your primary battery (for example) which has the winch directly attached that you will be drawing very large amounts of current through the VSR for charging (I assume) that would exceed its parameters, can anyone help me here?

BTW I was planning on using a 110 Amp VSR

Be gentle please

8th Dec 2015 3:28pm

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 HT Corris Grey

The winch draws more current than the alternator can provide, so the remainder is supplied by the battery.
If your winch is taking 400A and the alternator is providing 100A then 300A has to come from the battery/batteries. In this case, half the current will be provided by each battery, that's 150A.

A lot of people that (IMO) haven't thought about things properly run the winch off the second battery, in which case (100+150)=250A will be going through the link.

Another substantial issue with running a winch and a dumb VSR is that when you start the winch up, the voltage will drop to a level that the VSR will cut out at. So rather than winching from two batteries, you're actually only winching from the one. The better split chargers have a manual link mode for jump starting the main battery from the aux battery and for things like winching.

Last edited by Cupboard on 9th Dec 2015 8:31am. Edited 1 time in total

8th Dec 2015 3:37pm

mikeh501

Member Since: 07 Jan 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1142

Couldn't have said it better myself

8th Dec 2015 9:32pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16879

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

I would never consider using any of the existing original vehicle wiring for a winch - it simply isn't designed for it and probably isn't up to it.

8th Dec 2015 11:35pm

leeds

Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

That is one of the reasons the better split charging systems such as the IBS use a 200 amp relay :

Brendan

9th Dec 2015 12:40am

Alien

Member Since: 18 Jan 2015
Location: Bacchus Marsh
Posts: 230

I would not be getting the power feed for the winch from the starter terminal(access is also an issue).
If you use the information from Cupboard you would be creating a situation where 300amps+ is supplied by the battery->starter cable, I don't feel it would be large enough.
The earth circuit is just as important for winching and again I'd be going to the battery.
The earth lead from the battery->body->chassis, I believe is to small for the currents required.

Cupboard wrote:
The winch draws more current than the alternator can provide, so the remainder is supplied by the battery.
If your winch is taking 400A and the alternator is providing 100A then 300A has to come from the battery/batteries. In this case, half the current will be provided by each battery, that's 150A.

A lot of people that (IMO) haven't thought about things properly run the winch off the second battery, in which case 300A will be going through the link.

Another substantial issue with running a winch and a dumb VSR is that when you start the winch up, the voltage will drop to a level that the VSR will cut out at. So rather than winching from two batteries, you're actually only winching from the one. The better split chargers have a manual link mode for jump starting the main battery from the aux battery and for things like winching.

I'd be interested to hear what others think about using the starter as a power pick up point.

I have seen a picture of a MudCo type wing locker with a isolator and plug for the winch control remote, it looked very neat.
Found it...
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go...0ee88f.jpg

I've fitted a rotary winch isolator to the front of the battery box that can be reached from the drivers seat for when the passenger is running the hook out.
There is enough length on the leads that if the switch fails I can bolt the 2 wires onto 1 terminal to get out of trouble. Cheers,
Kyle.

9th Dec 2015 4:09am

dave18

Member Since: 11 Jul 2015
Location: Gorleston, Great Yarmouth
Posts: 497

1984 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Portofino Red

Cause of the winch and Anderson connectors ive uprated my Battery to TF Box eart and discovered I don't have a TF to Chassis earth so will sort that out both will be 50mm2 to make sure there is no issues,

In my view if you go back to the battery there is only one point it can fail at!

9th Dec 2015 7:35am

miker

Member Since: 13 Sep 2015
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1758

In the situation that cupboard describes, the easiest/simplest/cheapest way is probably just to have a separate, manual isolator between the two batteries that you engage to link them for winching

9th Dec 2015 9:01am

Hairysteve

Member Since: 15 Jun 2015
Location: Surrey
Posts: 692

So loads of good info and ideas here and I am back to the decision making process and wont be using the 140 Amp VSR solution (anyone looking for a split charger offering and not needing a winch?) and instead am looking at the IBS and Blue Sea offerings https://www.mobilecentre.co.uk/index.php?m...5aa9357bf3

The question here is cost/benefits:
IBS - £204 plus cabling etc. - easy install, uses more space around the dash which already has an iPad hanging off it
Blue Sea - £260 plus 35mm cabling etc. need to fit switch in panel (easy enough), 500 Amps, top of the range model, future proof

My head says go for the Blue Sea, the nagging part (missus influence) is go for IBS as you don't need the nuts for what you are going to be doing which would be winching (very occasional) and power to fridge and accessories.

What solution should my ££££ be spent on?

9th Dec 2015 9:22am

Cupboard

Member Since: 21 Mar 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 2971

Alien wrote:
I would not be getting the power feed for the winch from the starter terminal(access is also an issue).

*Snip*

I'd be interested to hear what others think about using the starter as a power pick up point.

The feed to the starter is, according to the wiring diagram, 40mm2 which is good for (apparently according to these guys that sell it http://www.beal.org.uk/automotive/automoti...0146.html) 300A, as opposed to 50mm2 which will do 345A. If I was doing loads of heavy winching or competition use then I'd be running fat cable to the battery. If I wasn't, then I'd consider using the starter connections if it made life easier. At least you know it's already protected by a 400A fuse in the case of a Puma.

A TDS Goldfish will draw 340A at full load if the equipment supplying it can cope with that, a Warn Zeon 10 is more like 400A. Bearing in mind that's a worst case scenario, most winching scenarios where you're not loading it right up to its maximum then you should be fine with the starter cables. If I was choosing between spending the money on slightly upgrading the cabling compared to sticking with cable that will be fine for most purposes and spending the extra cash on some decent strops, shackles and a snatch block, I'd do the latter.

Going back to the issue of VSR/split charge systems, one thing to bear in mind is that usually the bigger the system the higher the parasitic loads on the system. If you only need a basic one, there's no point in permanently running a massive solenoid that's drawing 3A just connecting a couple of batteries together and passing 10A. Whatever you buy, go in with your eyes open.

Edit to add: of course, the Blue Sea is a latching relay so doesn't have the massive on current that a lot do have. If you're just wanting a basic split charge with occasional winching/jumping use, the other option is a less heavy duty one plus a manual isolator

9th Dec 2015 11:53am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Cupboard wrote:
A TDS Goldfish will draw 340A at full load if the equipment supplying it can cope with that, a Warn Zeon 10 is more like 400A. Bearing in mind that's a worst case scenario, most winching scenarios where you're not loading it right up to its maximum then you should be fine with the starter cables. If I was choosing between spending the money on slightly upgrading the cabling compared to sticking with cable that will be fine for most purposes and spending the extra cash on some decent strops, shackles and a snatch block, I'd do the latter.

I was sure you were going to go the opposite way with that conclusion!

Some other makes of winch can run higher loads.

If you blow the main fuse (and don't carry a spare or two) then you are scuppered. The extra shackles and bits won't do you an good with a dead engine.

I'd want to run the cables independently and ensure one system did not compromise the other.

9th Dec 2015 12:21pm

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