 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > HELP PLEASE! Prop shaft, clunk, play |
 
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3346   
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Are front and rear diffs the same?
No, the rear is generally stronger as it takes more vehicle load as thats were the payload is put. On 90's they generally have lighter duty 2 pin front diffs as they don't get as much abuse as 110-130s which have a 4 pin diff. The rears are usually 4 pin. Ratio wise they are the same. On Earlyer defenders, 110-130s had the better Salisbury rear differentials which are pretty much indestructible and were very obviously different but doesn't apply to anything past 03 I believe. I would think it should be the same amount of slack from front to rear but excessive slack on only one end may indicate a tired diff OR tierd hub flanges. I am open to being corrected on the above but that is correct to my knowledge Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197 Self confessed mileage hunter  |
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27th Feb 2015 9:04pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6266  
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The able is very interesting - thank you
I should have been more specific however - would a puma 110 have the same front and rear diffs - from above I presume so and therefore having significantly more play on the front prop isn't a good sign  |
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27th Feb 2015 9:50pm |
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3346
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Define significant?
I have about half a turn on the front and a quater on the rear and I only get complements about how tight she is (oh er) Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197 Self confessed mileage hunter |
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27th Feb 2015 10:09pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6266
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Doing my head in this just checked again and they both seem identical (to the eye / hand..not measured) - I'm sure that wasn't the case before?? Could the diff possibly be intermittently broken???? More importantly shaggydog how do you get a significant difference in 2 similar diffs? Last edited by Caterham on 27th Feb 2015 10:31pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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27th Feb 2015 10:24pm |
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3346
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No. If it was broken you wouldn't have drive at all unless in diff lock. What are the symptoms to make you question it? Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197 Self confessed mileage hunter |
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27th Feb 2015 10:30pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16918 
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110 and 130 Defenders have utterly different front and rear diffs.
Front is a Rover pattern diff, a two gear unit (usually incorrectly referred to as a "two pin" diff) on vehicles up to about 2010 (?), then a four gear ("four pin") on later vehicles. The rear axle on all Pumas has a P38 pattern diff. The two are quite different and not interchangeable. So why the difference? In the era of the Td5 and Puma vehicles, LR realised that the Rover pattern two gear diff was not strong enough for the back end of the larger vehicles. Rather than continuing to fit the expensive Salisbury diff, LR redesigned the axle to take the 4-gear diff used in the larger P38 Range Rovers, since at the time this was the only in-house 4 gear diff. Later, as the inadequacy of the 2 gear Rover diff in the front became apparent, a 4 gear diff was designed to fit the Rover pinion housing but this has only ever been used in the front of LWB vehicles, despite being a stronger unit than the P38. 
The weakness with the P38 diff is due to the very short pinion shaft which necessitates the two bearings being very close together, and hence highly stressed. Ashcroft Transmissions have developed a replacement with a longer nose which removes this problem, but does require the propshaft to be shortened. |
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27th Feb 2015 11:37pm |
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| Natlas Member Since: 20 Mar 2013 Location: West Sussex Posts: 460 
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I saw this thread last summer when it started and it made me look at mine, which did have some play in the prop shaft but not as much as shown in shaggys video.
i left it but as I noticed drivetrain play over the winter I mentioned it to my stealer a couple of weeks ago at second service time - the result, 2 new rear driveshafts and a new shaft between the gearbox and transfer box. The latter looked a little rusty and probably hadn't seen a drop of grease in it's life. Had a new clutch too as that was just about to fall apart. Thanks heavens for warranty!  2.2 90 XS
88" Series One Old Norton 
Minerva |
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27th Feb 2015 11:39pm |
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3346
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Last comment was on Monday from a Land Rover Technician who was full of praise for a Defender of her age.
Its too dark to check exactly how much rotation I have now but will have a check tomorrow and report back to be certain 
The reason you can get a difference between front and rear diffs is because by rocking the prop shaft your not only rocking the diff, but taking up all the slack in the drive chain. As I said previously, every joint has movement in it so the more wear in each joint the more rotation you will get. As the front axle wears faster generally than the rear one it is not unusual for the front and rear propshaft to rotate slightly more or less than each other. For example, if your front drive flanges are on there last legs but your rear ones are brand new, your front prop will rotate more than your front one because it has more slack to take up. Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197 Self confessed mileage hunter |
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27th Feb 2015 11:40pm |
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3346
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Thanks Blackwolf for a much better explained and more detailed answer Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197
Self confessed mileage hunter |
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27th Feb 2015 11:49pm |
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| johnsy Member Since: 15 Apr 2014 Location: Queensland Posts: 2  
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Hi All,
Long time lurker, recent Defender owner! My 2014 Defender 110 has recently developed a "clunk" in the rear end when shifting first to reverse or when taking power after coasting. I have had a look underneath, and there is some play in the rear shaft/ diff. the universals look fine and the noise is not able to be replicated by hand. I would appreciate any advice from the learned forum members/ Defender Gurus out there as to how I keep the dealership honest and what possible causes they should check and narrow down. My gut feeling is the rear diff has excessive play for a vehicle with 22 000km and this probably is the source. Is the solution a new diff center and maybe axles or drive flanges? What other common items should be checked? maybe front diff too? Or gearbox output shaft? Thanks in advance,
Johnsy |
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5th Mar 2015 1:26pm |
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| jomara Member Since: 26 Oct 2009 Location: Lanarkshire Posts: 1760  
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Hi Johnsy
My 110 has been in a couple of time for this issue, the cure was to fit a new a new pinion flange and oil seal, the garage loctited the new flange and the half shaft drive flanges and let it cure fully to take up the play that exists in the splines. Hope this helps. John 2014 110 2.2TDCi XS Station wagon
1971 Bowler Tomcat 88 4.2 V8 Auto 2022 110 250D XS |
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5th Mar 2015 1:35pm |
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| johnsy Member Since: 15 Apr 2014 Location: Queensland Posts: 2
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Thanks for the info John.
Booked in this week for another look at the dealers... I'n not too confident in their ability to diagnose the issue but we have a good independent Land Rover specialist in town so I feel that eventually a solution will be found. Would upgraded heavy duty axle splines be a good idea when warranty is finished? thoughts? Cheers, Johnsy |
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10th Mar 2015 5:42am |
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| PAT303 Member Since: 25 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Posts: 123 
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Mine ended up being flogged out axle drive flanges and then adapter shaft,both replaced and clunk free. Pat
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10th Mar 2015 10:45am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6266
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Sorry shaggydog just noticed your question.
I had thought there was noticeably more rotational 'play' in the front prop compared to the rear but now seems the same??? Anyhow since then I've replaced the output flange on the rear of the transfer box which was clearly off centre and has at last resolved my 52mph vibration and the handbrake rumbling problem when slowing down. Still have occasional clunking when changing gear which seems to come in batches so for piece of mind I'm going to replace the A frame ball joint which I hope will help / resolve? (with all of my earlier problem can't believe the flange was also a problem!!??!! |
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13th Mar 2015 8:49pm |
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