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| Arkaig Member Since: 01 Feb 2020 Location: Highland Posts: 41  
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While waiting for the next step to ordering, I found this quite interesting reading:
https://www.defender2.net/gallery/albums/u...n-2021.pdf |
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21st Mar 2022 10:04am |
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| SteveGren Member Since: 24 May 2021 Location: Texas Posts: 8 
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I'd really be curious if it were possible to figure out 'similar' existing parts from each Manufacturer to the ones they are providing to Ineos.
I'm very interested in trying to put $$$ prices to the contribution of all these premium suppliers, to try to figure out where the purchase price is going! |
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23rd Mar 2022 4:10am |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1351  
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It's the same situation with any vehicle or product, wondering how they arrived at the selling price.
Design, development and tooling cost will be high for Ineos, per number of vehicles produced. The suppliers will have a relatively small profit margin, having to justify every cent. I used to work for one of the suppliers and first saw that news bulletin in mid 2021. One thing that does stand out, Ineos are determined to do a proper job of building a traditional type 4x4, not an SUV. As their first vehicle it needs to be impressive to build the brand. |
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23rd Mar 2022 12:17pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3997 
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One way to do it, look for the cheapest car SUV BMW sells with the 3.0 six, ZF Auto and X-drive. I know X-drive is different to Grenadier's 4x4, but I would argue that there is no way Ineos could undercut a BMW of similar size with the same engine/gearbox, or if they do they'll be selling for a loss.
I did try to do it, but BMW's model naming policy is baffling these days so I gave up. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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23rd Mar 2022 1:16pm |
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| ADVAW8S Member Since: 05 Oct 2021 Location: PNW Posts: 28
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It is an impossible task because there is the cost for the product, the cost they sell it to Ineos, and the cost that Ineos sells it to you. I have heard that Ineos needs to sell 40k of the Grenadier to break even. Many of the suppliers are not making anything new so the development cost has already been covered. Take Teremac, they are interested in breaking into the European market. They are willing to take a small hit in pricing to expand the market. |
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23rd Mar 2022 9:24pm |
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| Tim in Scotland Member Since: 23 May 2007 Location: The Land that time forgot Posts: 3750 
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I heard yesterday that there will only be two Ineos sales/service outlets in Scotland - one in Edinburgh and one in Glasgow, both in big cities and nothing rural. So have Ineos given up on selling the Grenadier to farmers and rural workers?.
The person I was speaking with works for a company selling and servicing used campers and agricultural vehicles in Stirling so already have the set up to sell Grenadier to rural folks and provide servicing/repairs/warranty work. They applied for but we’re turned down when they applied to be a franchised outlet for Ineos. Is Grenadier now being aimed at the “lifestyle” “ school run 4x4” or “Waitrose carpark “ set rather than the person who wants a simpler working vehicle to sling a dead sheep and muddy boots into? IE at rich city folks………. Pangea Green D250 90 HSE with Air Suspension, Off-road Pack, Towing Pack, Black Contrast roof , rear recovery eyes, Front bash plate, Classic flaps all round, extended wheel arch kit and a few bits from PowerfulUK Expel Clear Gloss PPF to come 2020 D240 1st Edition in Pangea Green with Acorn interior. Now gone - old faithful, no mechanical issues whatsoever ever but the leaks and rattles all over the place won’t be missed! |
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23rd Mar 2022 9:43pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2052 
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Maybe they have realised its never going to be at the price point normal people can afford and therefore have given up to chase the SUV set.......
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23rd Mar 2022 9:56pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1351
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Just to start a list of new, bespoke parts: Chassis, completely new. Axles, new. Body panels, completely new. Suspension arms, completely new. Springs and dampers, new. Wiring harness, new. Seats, new. Interior trim, completely new. Instrumentation, new. Switch gear, new. Glass, new. HVAC, new. Wheels, completely new. Bumpers and crash management system, completely new. Cooling system, new. Exhaust system, new. Windscreen wipers and washers, new. |
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23rd Mar 2022 10:08pm |
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| ADVAW8S Member Since: 05 Oct 2021 Location: PNW Posts: 28
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I think you misunderstand the concept of new. They are making a new part based on existing technology from an established brand. Versus a new company making a new product with new tools to fit a niche gap. You are not buying tools or spending costs to develop tools. New wheels use the same tools as old wheels.
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23rd Mar 2022 11:40pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1351
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I fully understand the the design and development process, who owns the tooling and who pays for what.
Just take the chassis frame as an example, because it's first on the list. The design and development contract for the chassis frame would be awarded to the supplier. Ineos will pay that supplier (Gestamp Automotive according to the bulletin) for all of their work to design the frame for Ineos' vehicle. Because Ineos pay for the design work, they own the design, nobody else can use it to build another vehicle. Every single pressed steel panel in the frame is bespoke, it's shape, material thickness and material grade have been specified for the Grenadier. Every one of those panels needs a set of tooling to manufacture it. Ineos pay for the tooling, they own it and are free move it to another supplier in case of supply, quality or cost problems. The supplier cannot use Ineos' tools to make parts for anyone else. The welding jigs used to put the frame together are also tooling paid for and owned by Ineos. As would be any special machining fixtures or bespoke assembly equipment. Quality inspection fixtures, again paid for and owned by Ineos. So none of it is used elsewhere and Ineos (or any other OEM) would pay the supplier for all tooling specific to their product. But the OEM actually owns the tooling, not the supplier of the components. Where a supplier is selling an off the shelf standard component to the OEM, say nuts, bolts or an engine assembly, then the supplier usually owns the component design and the tooling. |
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24th Mar 2022 12:49am |
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| markb110 Member Since: 22 May 2010 Location: Guildford Posts: 2520  
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You’ve hit the nail on the head there….. I read before that JLR had admitted that their pricing strategy was based around selling less vehicles as ordinary folk won’t be able to afford them. Just running a few errands today and the roads around have gone very quiet. The recent tax reduction at the fuel pumps was an absolute joke, the garages put their prices up this week so the five pence deduction is still more than a cost of a litre this time last week. The Grenadier is too small compared to a cheaper van for a commercial business to run and maybe too niche for the chino and cufflink wearing lot to even take a second look, and finally people have been brainwashed to believe that they have to go electric, and therefore won’t even consider the Grenadier in its current state. |
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24th Mar 2022 2:14pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 421  
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If a low budget truck was a realistic option, Land Rover would produce it.
But people - even in this forum - tend towards aircon, heated screens & seats, ... |
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31st Mar 2022 7:33pm |
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| spudfan Member Since: 10 Sep 2007 Location: Co Donegal Posts: 4478 
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I do not think that Land Rover want to be a seller in that market. For better or worse they have chosen a different path. Heated seats etc would not swing a deal for me. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali 2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu 2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai |
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4th Apr 2022 3:43pm |
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