 | Home > Off Topic > DVLA Open consultation on HGV/BUS and removing trailer tests |
 
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879   
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I've read the full consultation paper and there is no suggestions that all would-be car drivers would take a BE test, as some have suggested/inferred above. The proposal is a reversion to the old days when there was not BE test; a driver would take a B test and (if they pass, of course) get both B and BE categories on their licence. In essence this is what used to happen pre-1997.
For the LGV/PCV categories, the proposal is that you don't have to hold a full C licence to take a CE test (similarly for D/DE). At present, if you want to gain CE entitlement you must take a C test, get the C licence, then train (if required) and take the CE test, so the C licence is the provisional licence for the CE training. The result of this is that you need to take the C test, get the C licence from DVLA, and only then can you start training for the CE entitlement. The proposal would allow someone with a B licence to get a provisional licence covering training for both C and CE, the result of which would be that a competent person could take the C and CE tests on the same day. There is not at present any suggestion that anyone could take a CE test without first passing a C test (you would need a provisional licence plus C pass certificate or a full C licence to take the CE test). This is different to the pre-1997 arrangement when you could use a B licence as provisional entitlement for C and CE, and take just the CE test and (if you pass) get both C and CE entitlement on the back of a single test. The changes to D and DE are simply to bring them in line with the proposal for C and CE. In reality the changes proposed to LGV/PSV licencing only bring efficiencies in the process and make no difference to the training strategies and testing schemes, there are no downsides either from the trainees' perspective or from the road safety point of view. The changes to B and BE however will have an impact - there is the impact on those who make their living training people to drive with a trailer, and there is the potential impact on road safety of allowing people who have never towed anything in their life loose on the road with a 3.5 tonne trailer or gigantic caravan. My personal opinion on the merits of the B/BE changes are of no particular relevance, but I will say this as someone who has a held a full B/BE/C/CE licence since long before 1997 and who observes the driving behaviour of those around me on the roads. I think that driving conditions have changed beyond recognition since 1997, vehicles have similarly, and generally now the number of shockingly incompetent drivers on the roads in horrifying. Some of these won't have passed a test at all and are driving illegally, but they can't all be in that category. That tells me that the current test regime and legislation is letting people who shouldn't be allowed to drive unaccompanied at all pass a driving test. It would be in all our interests to enhance the training and testing regime to improve the standard of driving and the safety of ourselves and our families, and I see nothing in the current consultation which will do this. If the re-elimination of the BE test was to be matched by a corresponding rigour in the B test I would be inclined to be be more supportive. As it is, this part of the change seems to be purely driven by economics - statistically BE drivers towing trailers are not a major accident risk (being involved in only a very small proportion of the total number of accidents on the UK's roads) and the authorities would rather divert the testing effort from the BE test to dealing with the backlog of B tests. This is not a sensible proposition by any standard other than pure economics. |
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23rd Aug 2021 10:22am |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2054 
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problem (in my eyes) is that increasingly new drivers are simply taught to pass the test...
as an example I know of multiple new drivers who struggle to drive anything other than a small diesel car simply, it appears because when you start to analyse their driving they have no knowledge or experience of clutch control?? what they seem to be 'teach' is to simply side release the clutch and then apply throttle?? fine in a low stall Wiesel but no good once you start driving a petrol |
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23rd Aug 2021 11:15am |
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| Devon-Rover Member Since: 22 Jan 2015 Location: South Devon Posts: 906 
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Even with the trailer test though it is a case of taught to pass the test, To do the manoeuvre to reverse into the box, you just mark a line on the mudgaurd of the box van and you know when looking through the mirror you reverse up to the main line and when they line up the back of the van is in the box.
With the hitch / unhitch again the trainer told me that there is a line on the box van and you line that up with the HRW wire (5th down IIRC) and when you are that far back the ball is lined up, just go straight back. i'm not surprised these days that most trainers don't have a motor with a rear view camera. 
It could be argued about applying the park brake on the unhitch, Do you A) trust that it works and just go straight for chocks, and B) who really leaves a trailer for a time with the brakes on which do often stick. All mine parked up the farm are against blocks. Reading the safety report it seems most people don't do the first thing they are taught during the hitch up and that is to inspect the tyres and lights during the walk around. Without going into a full multi paragraph breakdown the TLDR would be: Bring in Trailer registration, insurance and testing for those over 750KG this should remove a lot of unsafe / unroadworthy trailers off the road. Doesn't have to be year thing but say to start Bi annually. Do as suggest to streamline the LGV HGV testing. Remove the B+E A'la pre 97, BUT like the pass plus scheme a trainer can offer a towing course to help with the insurance premiums as mentioned above for those not already holding the current entitlement. And yes turn the screw on the Stand B driving test as whether it has been a result of a pandemic but todays quality of driving seems to really going down hill. just my two pennth Also can be found on Fb, Ytube, Insta & Twitter @4WDSouthwest |
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23rd Aug 2021 6:36pm |
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| hank Member Since: 12 Sep 2016 Location: South Wales Posts: 2231 
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People with post 1997 licenses towing over 750kg without the B+E licence > 110 XS Double Cab > Instagram @simonlanemind |
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23rd Aug 2021 8:42pm |
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| Mini Landie Member Since: 23 Sep 2015 Location: Basingstoke Massiff Posts: 153 
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I got my driving licence 11 years ago so would have to take a trailer test.
One of the reasons I got a Defender was because I want to be able to help pull lorries in the snow, and technically I would need to have a license for towing. Now, some plod may not mind (or even ask) if I'm helping traffic to move in such arduous conditions but it would still be breaking the law. At least, this is how I understand it. 2003 90 TD5 Hardtop |
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23rd Aug 2021 9:39pm |
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| 90 Dreamer Member Since: 13 Jul 2019 Location: Oop North Posts: 2054
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Not sure that is the case at all but don't know enough of the wording of the law
They certainly aren't trailers |
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23rd Aug 2021 9:42pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19578
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I’d prefer if things were simply put back to what they were, simple as that.
There is no differences in people from past or present that would be like comparing the war time generation to the following generation. (I mean by this that every generation should have the same human rights as previous generations including freedoms). As it is, it’s putting people off of work and doing such jobs, there is so many regs and issues it’s making it nearly impossible to do anything work related for most people. It suits me to tow light < 750kg on a post 97’ licence and in-line with the law also. I’m lucky that this suits me and I don’t require more. It does annoy me that the B test I passed and many others that is arguably possibly even harder than a pre 97’ test has less entitlement categories attained for the same process. To this day there are many pre 97’ licence holders that never have towed, and never intended to. They can jump straight in overnight and tow a loaded caravan as an example. If we want a productive country we need opportunities opened up, without doing this it stifles productivity. Personally I don’t agree that a pre or post 97 licence holder should be seen as worth more or less than the other for any reason. Even trailer manufacturing provides jobs, Ifor Williams for example in Wales amongst others. Just my humble opinion of course. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧 |
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23rd Aug 2021 10:14pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3997 
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You don’t need B+E to undertake carriageway clearance, removing a stranded vehicle to the nearest place of safety. It is not towing. However, I hope if you are planning to move heavies you get some proper training and practise in doing it before attempting it in public in a snow storm or something. It is very easy for it to go wrong very quickly. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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24th Aug 2021 9:40am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879
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(Fun Police mode on)
Don't forget also to check that your insurance covers you fully for third party damage and public liability before you even think of starting to pull anything in snow (or at any other time, for that matter). Otherwise if something goes wrong you could well end up with a crippling personal liability. I'm sorry to say that nowadays I will only help under exceptional circumstances or if lives are at risk. Anything else is best left to the professionals or those with comprehensive PLI. (Fun Police mode off) |
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24th Aug 2021 10:14am |
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| Mini Landie Member Since: 23 Sep 2015 Location: Basingstoke Massiff Posts: 153
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All valid points by Bluest and blackwolf. I can't guarantee I'd be acting fully within the long arm of the law but in practice, I do like to think I'd have a sensible head on me in the circumstances. I certainly wouldn't be pulling with what I have on the rear currently - the standard tow ball. At least not something as heavy as a lorry.
I've read many comments by drivers of recovery-capable vehicles choosing not to recover people unless the vehicle is in a dangerous spot. Perhaps I'm too kind but I really would like to help people, hence joining my county's 4x4 Response group. Speaking of the 4x4 Response thing... My current insurer knows I'm part of that group and the group itself does have its own insurance for various tasks. Members are only insured by the group if they've tasked a driver with something, otherwise the member has to have their own valid insurance. 2003 90 TD5 Hardtop |
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24th Aug 2021 6:53pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3997
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Sorry to come over all adenoidal
 This stuff was part of my job over ten years and I was responsible for a team of others doing it too. I’m still involved on the periphery now, although won’t catch me mauling around with tow straps in the rain these days  It’s not just equipment, it’s proper procedures, training and technique and risk assessment that is most important. I sometimes wonder whether 4x4 groups have all this in place as thoroughly as they should, they may do though.
You can safely carriageway clear a hgv using the standard 4x4 fitted towing kit with a jaw and pin hitch, but there’s quite a bit behind it if you want to do it safely and without damage to the vehicle. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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24th Aug 2021 7:42pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5024 
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I'm torn in many ways
I think the current +e has a lot of silly loop holes and oddities that make no sense. It's not just pure and post 97 for towing. I think the only grandfather categories had a lot more sense when you think about licence lines To try and explain I had a van rig driving under my c entitlement I couldn't tow the disco on but could tow it (unladen) with the disco I could drive a max weight c rigid but not c1 equivalent vehicle with a 3t car on it. Less weight no real difference in trailers. I can load up my tractor and trailer far heavier than b +e or c1+e All within my licences (I do have +e on some( I think there should be a +e test but only one and I could see a c+e test too but equally do c plus a c+e skills check? I can't understand why c1 and d1 + e is different etc I wouldn't get rid of any main entitlement or at least 1 +e test Mike |
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1st Sep 2021 12:23am |
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| Landymatt Member Since: 31 Dec 2018 Location: York Posts: 191
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Not sure where these guys have got their info from, but they think the rules are changing - anyone heard similar?
https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/news/driver-li...-the-road/ |
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10th Sep 2021 9:26pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19578
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It’s official here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rules-for-...er-in-2021 Updated 5hrs ago. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧 |
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10th Sep 2021 9:42pm |
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