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Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5765

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey

Let’s all write in about the shifter. Clearly not working for anyone. If they really do believe they’d have to ‘pass the cost on to the consumer’ I wonder how much extra that would be over 30k cars? If anyone buying this is willing to stump up 40k+, I’m sure they’d be happy to pay a couple of hundred quid each to have a better thought out design? Couple of hundred quid, over 30k cars, over 3yr break even target equates to over 1.5m€, which should be more than enough for R&D, tooling and manufacture etc. I’d certainly pay.

As for all black, much much preferred.

And in terms of the vehicle being used by employees, there’s two trains of thought. First, a switch is a switch, easily understood and used, supported by the functional layout and the easy access for repairs. The second train of thought is that this car is being launched in an era when almost all cars have over complicated electrics and touchscreens, as do our phones, tablets etc. There are still some of us older types around who might dislike and struggle with these interfaces, but the younger age of ‘new employees’ likely to use this in coming years means they will understand it intuitively. Just look at the number of five year olds who can work a tablet or smartphone better than their parents. Even having said that, it’s far far less interface driven than the new Defender and most other modern cars. Mrs Grenadier’s Audi’s MMI being a (nightmare) case in point. Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

Last edited by Grenadier on 10th Jul 2021 10:16am. Edited 4 times in total

10th Jul 2021 8:22am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

County V8 wrote:
Is that BMW shifter a LHD one how do you push the button with your left thumb as you would if in a LHD car with your right thumb.

Will there be a RHD one or are all BMWs like that??

Just seen another shot answers that question

There appears to be two versions of the shifter:
RHD (in auto mode?)

Click image to enlarge
LHD (in M/S mode?)

Click image to enlarge

Last edited by Supacat on 10th Jul 2021 10:14am. Edited 1 time in total

10th Jul 2021 9:39am

90 Dreamer

Member Since: 13 Jul 2019
Location: Oop North
Posts: 2054

2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Corris Grey

surely thats simply LHD or RHD set-ups??

10th Jul 2021 9:53am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Wild Card 90 wrote:

I love the aircraft style switchgear, and the sheer audacity to go against the flow with such an analogue statement. Well done! Looks like a fun place to be.

If they work half as well as those on my radio, then they will be perfect for the job:

Click image to enlarge

10th Jul 2021 9:56am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

90 Dreamer wrote:
surely thats simply LHD or RHD set-ups??

You're making me doubt myself - but I'm seeing that the shifters themselves are actually handed...

Functionality is the same in terms of engaging drive, moving left to get sports/manual shift; but the unlock button is on different sides and the P button is in different locations.

Eronomically, I'd say it is a LHD shifter as the manual shift left handed allows you to cup the shifter whilst moving up/down, any natural lateral load will not have an impact; lateral load in the RHD version has a chance of knocking it back into auto mode by accident.

Overall, I'm not fussed by it either way - I wouldn't be spending much time looking at it.

Last edited by Supacat on 10th Jul 2021 10:24am. Edited 1 time in total

10th Jul 2021 9:59am

Grenadier

Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5765

Supacat wrote:
Wild Card 90 wrote:

I love the aircraft style switchgear, and the sheer audacity to go against the flow with such an analogue statement. Well done! Looks like a fun place to be.

If they work half as well as those on my radio, then they will be perfect for the job:

Click image to enlarge

It was one of the most pleasurable aspects of Mrs Grenadier’s (then newly launched) BMW mini. Reassuring click. Wonderfully tactile.

Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey

10th Jul 2021 10:17am

Bluest

Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3997

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

Regarding the gear knob, apparently the cost of a redesign is eye wateringly expensive. In the millions apparently. It may also be that BMW just won’t sell the rest of the drive train without it. Don’t use the knob, can’t have the gearbox and engine. A chap on another forum I’m on, who claims to be an expert and to work in the industry, explained that because the the gear knob is part of the system that can make the car move, it has to go through an insanely rigorous (read expensive) testing and approval process for safety reasons. Once approved you can’t change anything without re-approving the whole system.

I appreciate that is third hand information from me, but it sounds plausible and explains why Ineos, Morgan and Toyota, who all use this drive train, all use the BMW shifter. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

10th Jul 2021 10:43am

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

You mean this?

Quote:
Looking for reasons why it would be so expensive to replace and came across these posts on PistonHeads:

"Whilst trivially easy to replace with another CAN enabled lever of your own design, you "can't" because it's rated SAFETY CRITICAL on the FMEA.

This is because selecting drive or reverse on an auto causes the vehicle to move, which could crush someone against something or result in the vehicle moving un-expectidly and causing an accident. As a result, the gear level unit will use dual channel redundant CAN and is so incorporated into the powertrain safety matrix that BMW simply won't let you replace it, because that system as a whole has had an absolute fortune in money and tens of thousands of hours of validation done on it.

Basically, as per Morgan and everyone else, you use the entire powertrain as supplied or sod off. Those are your two choices...... "

and

"The FMEA includes the entire system chain, from lever to microswitch to microcontroller to CAN etc

You can't change the lever, or change the switches or anything without voiding the safety case, sorry!

(the FMEA includes things like the lever jamming, or the switches jamming, or being filled with spliied coffee, going past a radar transmitter at an airport, you name it, the FMEA and validation are, i can tell you, onerous and rigerous. Its a case of use it all, absolutely unchanged, or use none of it)".

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic....0&i=60

https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic79294-90.html

10th Jul 2021 11:20am

ChasingOurTrunks

Member Since: 19 Aug 2020
Location: Canada
Posts: 89

blackwolf wrote:
ChasingOurTrunks wrote:
I’ve been waiting for this video to decide between the Ineos and the Gren. ...

Do you means the new Defender and the Grenadier?

Yup, typo on my part. Thank you for pointing it out!

10th Jul 2021 8:04pm

ChasingOurTrunks

Member Since: 19 Aug 2020
Location: Canada
Posts: 89

Grenadier wrote:
ResGuy, on another video review it’s revealed that the design team did look at options to change the auto selector from the BMW supplied one, but the cost was prohibitive and would only be passed on to the consumer, which they were keen to avoid. I suppose it’s a case of functionality and value over style.

COT, I think the problem with a centre seat is that in Europe there isn’t really that centre-seat or bench seat culture as we traditionally put our gear lever on the transmission tunnel, whilst in the US (or US market destined cars) you put it on the steering rack cowl. A version of this has been done on the New Def, (where they have put the selector on the dashboard), whether that be as a nod to older gen Defs or to appeal to the N American market. But in this configuration on the Gren there will never be a seat there.

That makes sense — I have a little guy and I dreamt of touring the world with him having a great view up in between my wife and I. He’ll get used to the back seat though

10th Jul 2021 8:07pm

Bluest

Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3997

Supacat wrote:
You mean this?

Quote:
Looking for reasons why it would be so expensive to replace and came across these posts on PistonHeads:

"Whilst trivially easy to replace with another CAN enabled lever of your own design, you "can't" because it's rated SAFETY CRITICAL on the FMEA.

This is because selecting drive or reverse on an auto causes the vehicle to move, which could crush someone against something or result in the vehicle moving un-expectidly and causing an accident. As a result, the gear level unit will use dual channel redundant CAN and is so incorporated into the powertrain safety matrix that BMW simply won't let you replace it, because that system as a whole has had an absolute fortune in money and tens of thousands of hours of validation done on it.

Basically, as per Morgan and everyone else, you use the entire powertrain as supplied or sod off. Those are your two choices...... "

and

"The FMEA includes the entire system chain, from lever to microswitch to microcontroller to CAN etc

You can't change the lever, or change the switches or anything without voiding the safety case, sorry!

(the FMEA includes things like the lever jamming, or the switches jamming, or being filled with spliied coffee, going past a radar transmitter at an airport, you name it, the FMEA and validation are, i can tell you, onerous and rigerous. Its a case of use it all, absolutely unchanged, or use none of it)".

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic....0&i=60

https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic79294-90.html

I do. The chap has an abrasive style, and is convinced the Grenadier is junk and no one can take a different route than JLR, but he does seem to know his technical stuff. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

10th Jul 2021 9:19pm

Zed

Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: In the woods
Posts: 3025

2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black

The dash looks ugly and very tacky and the gear selector and handbrake don’t match at all. Proper parts bin stuff. From a design POV it really is a dogs dinner and reminds me of a few dodgy modified Defenders. Anyone remember the one with switchgear from a fighter plane? However I actually commend them for trying something a bit different and who knows, perhaps it will be so ugly it actually works, like the Fiat Multipla. WARNING.
This post may contain sarcasm.

10th Jul 2021 9:34pm

Tom_T

Member Since: 08 Nov 2020
Location: Essex
Posts: 87

milesr3 wrote:
Been looking round the one they have on display at Goodwood. The interior, particularly the dash, is awful. It looks like an Amstrad stereo from the 80s.

There are lots of bits and bobs poking out underneath and some flimsy plastic trim, like the rear quarter panels. It doesn’t look the finished article to me.

The axles and chassis look serious quality.

Saw it at Goodwood today and have to agree the interior is pretty poor and not what I would expect for the price point. Underpinnings looked great and clearly that’s what they have focused on but I would think that the majority of their potential “public” consumers won’t be swayed with the interior.

Commercial users won’t mind so much and fleet operators won’t care but Ineos have said that their target market is not only commercial but “lifestyle” users as well.

Will be interested to see what the uptake is in this segment.

10th Jul 2021 9:46pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5024

2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Scotia Grey

I’m glad they have spent all this time to make a truly hideous and pointless car in another country

How many units do we think they will sell…maybe they will make a movie travelling to the past to make people want one…

Mike

10th Jul 2021 10:04pm

LandymanStefan

Member Since: 30 Aug 2017
Location: Surrey
Posts: 862

I think it’s awesome. Can’t wait to check one out in the flesh.

10th Jul 2021 10:16pm

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