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blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16868

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Puma starting problems

Over the years there have been several threads on here about difficulties starting the Puma engine. Several people have posted that they are having problems. but generally there don't seem to be solutions or resolutions posted, more often the thread just goes quiet.

The two most common non-starting scenarios seem to be be:-

1) The dash lights work normally but either the starter disengages, sometimes re-engaging and disengaging repeatedly, after which the engine may start, or the engine starts and then dies within a second or so, or

2) The only dash light to come on is the alternator warning light, the temp gauge may hit the red, and the engine doesn't crank.

At present my '07 DC is intermittently doing both of these, and I am having trouble isolating the probable cause. I am not the first owner of the vehicle, and it is interesting that on the invoice for its first service (which I do have) there is a note that an intermittent failure to start was investigated, but no fault was found, so it seems that something like this has been happening from new.

The vehicle recently was in the dealer formerly known as Ottons for a clutch change, and I asked them to take a look. Perhaps not surprisingly there was once again NFF, but although they suggested that the starter motor could be on the blink, but they didn't really say why they thought it was the starter as opposed to anything else. I am inclined to think that scenario 1 could well be a starter or solenoid fault, so a new starter might be sensible, but I don't see scenario 2 being symptomatic of a faulty starter.

I do not leave the leys in the vehicle, and only carry one set of keys, so I don't think it is the passive-coil-activating-the-immobiliser problem.

The battery connections are all good, and there are no *apparent* problems with the starter relay or other connections under the driver's seat. The ECU has had the Q068 upgrade and is, as far as I know, up-to-date. There are no stored faults.

The battery is the original but seems to be OK; I have never had the slow crank of a dying battery - it either cranks normally or if fault 2 is happening doesn't crank at all.

The only known systemic problem with Puma ignition switches I am aware of was the one in the TSB about repeated starter failures, which involved the starter staying energised and this doesn't match the symptoms, so I don't see any reason really to suspect the starter switch.

So, can anyone make any suggestions as to what to try next? Is it sensible to fit a new starter motor? Has anyone had either or both of the above symtpms and done something which has made them stop permantently, and if so, what was done?

I would really appreciate some guidance on this since it seems to have baffled the dealer and is beginning to baffle me.

Thanks

24th Aug 2011 11:38am

robharvey

Member Since: 14 Dec 2009
Location: Durban
Posts: 86

2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White

Check the engine control module main relay (part # LYWB500060 here in South Africa). Your situation 2 is similar to a problem I experienced about a year ago when mine would start, but later cut out with the temp gauge going to red. Over time it got worse to the point where I was able to start the vehicle and only run it for about 30 seconds before it cut out. Mine was water damaged (long story).

24th Aug 2011 12:02pm

Allan

Member Since: 09 Sep 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 166

2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SVX Station Wagon Santorini Black

Mine has done this a couple of times, both times in BP service station for courts, I believe I'm not the only person this has happend to at BP stations. I've had the dealer check the system twice now but no fault found. A friend had to push his onto the street before the vehicle would start. All very odd. Alien's maybe

.
I hope someone knows what it is, I thought we were going to be stranded 1500km from home when it last happened.

Allan

25th Aug 2011 9:17am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16868

Allan wrote:
Mine has done this a couple of times, both times in BP service station for courts, I believe I'm not the only person this has happend to at BP stations. I've had the dealer check the system twice now but no fault found. A friend had to push his onto the street before the vehicle would start. All very odd. Alien's maybe .
I hope someone knows what it is, I thought we were going to be stranded 1500km from home when it last happened.

Allan

That sounds like the symptoms of interference from a TETRA (police) radio network, which is a classic for preventing car remote locking systems from working (the frequencies for TETRA are very close to those for UK car remotes). I had a spell of this with my Disco2 when I couldn't unlock it on my drive, but could on the road. The problems stopped abruptly when I contacted the operator of Dorset Police's radio network, although they denied all possibility it could be them. If there is a radio relay on the forecourt (and there often is now in the tall sign mast) it could be connected.

Still, I would expect that to stop remote unlocking rather than to prevent starting. Interesting, though!

25th Aug 2011 11:02am

Allan

Member Since: 09 Sep 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 166

I've given thought to haveing the Land rover system dieled out of my vehicle. I almost did this on my trip north but was woried about insurance. Perhaps an after market system may be the way to go. I can think of lots of places here I don't want to be stuck due to a faulty alarm system.

Allan

25th Aug 2011 3:40pm

cradgebank

Member Since: 30 Dec 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 307

2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey

I am currently having an intermitent starting problem, happens anytime, cold engine, hot engine.

Car cranks and fires then stops, turn the key again and appears to have a flat battery, wait 45 seconds and then Car fires up fine.

Went into dealer on Tuesday, tried it 20 times, never failed, drove home, failed at first attempt

Any ideas ?. Richard

Either a 90, 110 or 130.
Discovery 5

27th Aug 2011 2:18am

bpman

Member Since: 21 May 2008
Location: Oslo
Posts: 8069

I was talking to a td5 owner he had exactly the same problem, he ended up fitting a new battery and has been fine ever since.

27th Aug 2011 7:36am

MK

Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 2259

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White

OE battery terminals are hard to tighten. I ended up adding a short piece of copper wire between the terminals. No more problems. Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

27th Aug 2011 10:53am

Allan

Member Since: 09 Sep 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 166

It's not the battery, its strange, it can be good for months then

happens again. It's very odd.

Allan

27th Aug 2011 12:50pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16868

Allan,

When mine is misbehaving it either starts normally then dies a second or so later, or cranks with a noise that sounds like the starter is engaging and disengaging (horrible destructive sound) after which is may or may not die, or simply fails to do anything in which case only the alternator warning light is illuminated.

When it does this, I find the best remedy is to remove the key from the lock and hold it well away from the column, press the lock button, then sit very still until the dash leds show that the full alarm/immobiliser has activated. Then press the unlock, and start again.

Usually - at least so far - doing a full set/unset sequence has cleared the fault.

I believe that my Puma has beein doing this intermittenly from new, although I am not the first owner, and when last checked by a dealer there was NFF. The dealer did suggest that the starter may be faulty but I think this was based more on my description of the crunching noise than any diagnostics.

At the moment my pet theory is that there is an intermittent failure of the passive immobiliser to detect a valid keyfob within range. I believe that if this happens when the engine is running, it will stop. If it happens when the engine is cranking, it will stop cranking (and if it is momentary with might then try to crank again). If the condition is persisted, the immobiliser will then inhibit engine start althogether. As far as I can see, it could account for all the symptoms.

When I get the time I will play about some more to see if I can prove or disprove my theory. Since the passive immobiliser is essentially the same on a Td5 and Puma, logic would suggest that both engines should be susceptible.

30th Aug 2011 12:00pm

lrmaniac

Member Since: 04 Feb 2010
Location: Lisboa
Posts: 762

2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Keswick Green

I had a failure on start up too ... When turning the key the engine gave a click, then all light went out and it did not start ... Sometimes it started after a while, but when trying all the dash lights were out, like I had no battery in the car ... then after a few tries it started OK ...

The battery cable (earth - black one) was replaced (dealer's diagnostic) two months ago under warranty, and never hapened again... Regards
Joao

'10 Land Rover Defender 110 CC
'08 BMW F800GS
'64 SIIA Forward Control
'69 SIIA 109 ZA CKD
_____________________________________________
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

30th Aug 2011 4:03pm

Allan

Member Since: 09 Sep 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 166

blackwolf wrote:
Allan,

When mine is misbehaving it either starts normally then dies a second or so later, or cranks with a noise that sounds like the starter is engaging and disengaging (horrible destructive sound) after which is may or may not die, or simply fails to do anything in which case only the alternator warning light is illuminated.

When it does this, I find the best remedy is to remove the key from the lock and hold it well away from the column, press the lock button, then sit very still until the dash leds show that the full alarm/immobiliser has activated. Then press the unlock, and start again.

Usually - at least so far - doing a full set/unset sequence has cleared the fault.

I believe that my Puma has beein doing this intermittenly from new, although I am not the first owner, and when last checked by a dealer there was NFF. The dealer did suggest that the starter may be faulty but I think this was based more on my description of the crunching noise than any diagnostics.

At the moment my pet theory is that there is an intermittent failure of the passive immobiliser to detect a valid keyfob within range. I believe that if this happens when the engine is running, it will stop. If it happens when the engine is cranking, it will stop cranking (and if it is momentary with might then try to crank again). If the condition is persisted, the immobiliser will then inhibit engine start althogether. As far as I can see, it could account for all the symptoms.

When I get the time I will play about some more to see if I can prove or disprove my theory. Since the passive immobiliser is essentially the same on a Td5 and Puma, logic would suggest that both engines should be susceptible.

Almost the same as mine. Same, key out lock, unlock, try again and all good for weeks. I got back from the Kimberley trip in June , this was the last time it failed, since then the vehicle has been serviced and the fault reported. The dealer found no fault. It has not re-occured as yet. I also own a Td5 90 with the same type system and have had no problems with the alarm. No problems with anything else either, but thats an other story. Do you think an after market alarm/ immoboliser that bypasses the L.R. system is the way to go. By the way when yours does start cold on partial throttle does the engine run rough, almost like its missing.

Allan

31st Aug 2011 3:22pm

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

If you think it is the passive immobilizer this is easy to check by disabling it in the 10AS module. By disabling the passive immobilizer the defender will still be fully immobilized by relocking with the fob or key so wont affect security other than when driving which means you would still need the key/fob to mobilize the vehicle in the first place. Also as TETRA is intertwined with the GSM transmitter network wouldn't any cell transmitter replicate this as the problem and be easily checked by driving up to a cell tower and basically try to emulate your faults?

11th Sep 2011 8:12pm

cradgebank

Member Since: 30 Dec 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 307

I have traced my fault down to the Passive Immobiliser, seems to have a mind of its own.

What do I need to disable it in the 10AS module ?. Richard

Either a 90, 110 or 130.
Discovery 5

12th Sep 2011 1:31am

Lorryman100

Member Since: 01 Oct 2010
Location: Here
Posts: 2686

Diagnostic gear. A nanocom evolution, MSV2 or Hawkeye will allow easy access.

12th Sep 2011 11:10am

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