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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952  
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I find Ford to be an odd company. In the small van market sector, VW, Citroen, Peugeot, Renault, Toyota, Mercedes, Vauxhall... are all going to have an electric van (the little runabout ones). Only Ford is not. The Connect and Courier are some time off, by which time Ford would have lost an enormous amount of sales. I would much rather we buy our next electric van from Ford, but obviously they don't want our money. Strange that a big company couldn't plan to compete against all the other manufacturers.
Same with the Bronco, of course. No right-hand drive for UK, Japan, Southern Africa, Australia, New Zealand, India, Indonesia... Odd. Now left. |
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25th May 2021 8:20am |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3140 
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You're missing the point. The distribution network was never designed to have multiple such units all working at the same time. The thinking was that the cables would never run at maximum capacity as people would turn things on and off at different times. If everyone is running car chargers overnight (many of which are way more than 13A, they have to have a minimum 80A cut out fuse) it can be too much for the network, leading to cable breakdown and overloading of transformers. This is why new build sites are using much bigger cables and a lot of thought is going into phase balancing etc. 2011 110 USW 1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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25th May 2021 9:45am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Ok, but haven't we in fact got a 'unused' capacity during the night? You obviously know more than I do about this, but even if every car owner in the country switched a 13 amp supply on to charge their car, the grid is going to cope - surely? And if, as you say, some car owners are going to switch on a 30 amp supply (for a 7kW charger) that's not going to be all night, that's going to get naturally staggered by owners from 5.00 in the afternoon until late at night, AND for a shorter time than my 13 amp supply going all night, isn't it?
I should declare that I'm a (electric) heating and hot water engineer - installing 3/6 kilowatt mains-pressure cylinders, and 9/12kW heating systems. I think people should be far more worried about the draw from domestic use. We recently installed two systems in a small block of flats that were next door to each other. We know that two other flats in the same block have done the same. These flats all had gas boilers which (because of the flue pipe) are no longer suitable. Over the coming three years, ALL the flats will go electric - all pulling 52 amps on a cold day. I have already highlighted to the managing agent that something will pop. All that is in addition to the phase out of gas boilers which was supposed to start in just two years, though that's now uncertain (in new builds). In the past two years I have switched many of my customers from gas to electric (doing another next month) and it's kind of odd that no one in government has a clue as to where we're going (though perhaps it's not). So, to be honest, I don't think it's car charging which is the problem we should be addressing. Now left. |
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25th May 2021 1:47pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3341 
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Dynamic Load Management.
This is the new buzz phrase in the world of EV charging. Stick with me. It's not my idea so don't shoot the messenger 
So in the future we may not just have the one EV requiring charging we may have two or three. We are also seeing the demise of the Gas Boiler (whenever that may be) and no doubt, the oil one as well. The option is Electricity. It's nearly all green now, generated from renewables and it ticks all the boxes. It is correct that our electricity supply network is not designed to supply these enormous loads. National Grid may have the capacity but sure as fire is hot, your local provider (whoever that is) whatever they say, has not. They will provide a large electricity supply, but you are going to need deep pockets as non of this comes cheap and they will not be paying. I saw an article saying there will be an extra £300m from the Government for infrastructure. This will help, but it is a drop in the ocean and us as end users will get the brunt of the costs. What has been devised is a monitoring system. The main supply coming into your house will be monitored to see how much load the property is using (possibly by your new smart meter?). When the load is above a certain level, air source heat pump running, kettle on, oven on, the EV charger(s) will shut down. As soon as the load diminishes, the EV chargers will re-connect. Using the IoT (that's the internet of things for those who have a life  ) you will be able to make a call as to which charger charges first, or whether you will run all of the chargers at a lower rate.
That's the plan. The downside. If you get home from a long trip and your car is at 10%, it is winter, and your heating doesn't go off all night, along with your hot water cylinder heating as well, there is a possibility that your car won't charge, or at least wont charge to full. If you have two or three vehicles, well it's highly unlikely you will ever charge all three. This is old technology. This is how storage heaters charged up using Economy 7 (at night when there was less capacity on the network). The only difference this is a bit more 'intelligent' I will throw another curved ball. You live in a block of flats with 60 car park spaces in the the basement car park. They will all have EV Charging point. As the load on the flats reduces, whose car is allowed to charge first? These are issues that haven't quite been thought out, but that's the general idea. Dynamic Load Management. Remember where you heard it first 
If you live on a housing estate built in the last 40 years, there is not a hope in hell that the cables supplying your house (there mostly going to be underground) are going to be big enough for the electrical loads which are being envisaged. The secondary HV transformer supplying your estate won't be big enough either. Worth reiterating that National Grid are the Guys who do the big pylons, 240000 Volts / 132000 Volts. There is quite a lot of cables transformers and switchgear between them and you. There is also some very interesting work being done where you batteries from your EV can be used as energy storage so if you don't take your car out during the day, the power will run backwards and help out supplying your home. The world is going electric. There is no point arguing this as the governments and leaders have made their minds up. It is going to have to work. I personally think we have some hard decisions to make between now and fully electric vehicles. The Politicians, business leaders and electricity suppliers Directors will all be retired on a fat pension before a lot of these issues come to a head so undoubtedly look at your kids as they are going to have to be the ones to sort this all out and make it work. |
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25th May 2021 2:46pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Thanks for all that info - interesting read. There is one glimmer of hope... As someone who is desperate to be a self-builder (can't find land!), the one thing we have set on as paramount is a passive house (ultra insulation for those who don't know). This means that our electricity consumption will be so small that our bill is likely £150 a year (yes, I'm not joking). Now, this is obviously not for everyone, but it's only a short time before the government finally realises that ALL new builds have to be passive homes.
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/passivhaus-what-you-need-know/ We can't wait to put all our building plans into action, but we have to wait for land to come up, and as we're in Berkshire, that may be a long wait. We may need to look at moving westward or southward. Now left. |
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25th May 2021 3:25pm |
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| boxoftricks Member Since: 06 Feb 2019 Location: Home Counties Posts: 745 
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With the government about to slash the greenbelt, it may not be such a long wait....
Does anyone know if there is a clause allowing the continued sale of commercial vehicles as battery-powered vehicles will never have the power and range for certain applications? |
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25th May 2021 3:47pm |
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| excossack Member Since: 22 Feb 2012 Location: North West Posts: 5740 
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Like massive mobile cranes, heavy recovery trucks or massive load movers such as ALE or Mammot? 1999 Defender TD5 110
Regards John M0VAZ Econet Station 48 no clock |
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25th May 2021 4:03pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3341
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As batteries and technology stand at present, it’s difficult to see how we can electrify large vehicles (in any number). Maybe the answer is to utilise our railways for the long distance work and use smaller electric trucks for local distribution?
It reminds me of the Foden / ERF story where the former stuck with steam lorries when the latter saw the benefit of the ICE (and sadly both marques lost to history now) and also of the narrowboats when steam engines were fitted firstly to fly boats which transported perishables. The engine and coal took up a large proportion of the hold so they towed a butty or unpowered boat behind. Maybe we need to rethink what we consider to be normal or acceptable. Maybe road trains are the future and massive batteries? One of the things that limited range will put a stop to is this bizarre cost cutting exercise by businesses to have a single service engineers or salesman to cover half the country. I remember phoning our photocopier engineer for a call out in Norwich. He was then leaving Southampton! I have been involved with Pasivhaus and Enerphit which is retro fitting existing properties to near Pasivhaus standard. Creating all new houses as Pasivhaus would be ideal, but it is not practicable with construction as hit and miss as it is in this country. It’s all about the details and unfortunately, our building practices are shoddy on new builds to say the least. You mess up at construction with say thermal bridges and the building will not perform. If you go down that route, get an Architect who understands Pasivhaus and a contractor who, if doesn’t understand, is willing to learn. It is so much better to improve the building fabric than to bolt things on to a poorly performing building to make it greener. It is something that I would like to do before I retire. Who wants to spend their pension on heating oil?? |
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25th May 2021 7:02pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Yes, we looked at EnerPHit, but it's very costly - so costly that we believe to start fresh with a Passive house is better. There are some package homes, as you probably know, which undertake to supply (and do) everything. We'll probably go for someone like BeattiePassive, though I'm keen to buy weatherproof stage only, as I have refurbished a number of times and can do everything except plaster...and both my nephews are plasterers! I am just coming to the end of a complete re-building of my niece's house for her (literally finished the upstairs today, and just need to fit skirting downstairs). It's been a five-month project while she lived with her in-laws, and it just makes me want to build more than ever. Can't wait to do shadow-gap skirting
We looked at just normal brick & block with solar panels etc. but it's still a high annual fuel bill (and my maths tell me that you may not get your money back on solar), so passive is the way to go. The future of energy is so uncertain until we crack fusion. Short-term, EnerPHit is going to have to be adopted, no matter what the cost, by so many, but as I say, passive has got to be mandatory for new builds. Annual fuel bills of £150 (despite initial investment loading) is the only way...until we crack fusion. Now left. |
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25th May 2021 7:48pm |
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| SteveGren Member Since: 24 May 2021 Location: Texas Posts: 8 
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I don't yet..hopefully as more details emerge I will be able to give my best guess as to if it will be. Definitely waiting and seeing! |
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25th May 2021 8:14pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3341
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I was told about two years ago Pasivhaus is around a 20% increase in build costs. I think the off site build is a great idea. Me and my wife looked at these at the NEC a few years back. They a very impressive.
I heard of some solar panels up the road from me that failed after about 5 years on a small estate of houses  The solar industry has been the replacement double glazing of the 70's and 80's. There have been some very good companies but there have also been some very questionable one's too. Panel quality is a lottery as you hardly ever choose a make when you order them, you get what you are given.
Sorry all. I realise this has gone completely off the original topic. Getting back on topic, I think the downfall of any new design of automobile (not just the Grenadier) is not having an EV option. I understand hydrogen fuel cells, and I actually think this isn't a bad Idea but the world is turning electric whether Jim likes it or not. The long term success will be whether the vehicle design is adaptable to the certain new legislation which will be just around the corner. No point spending a fortune and many hours designing something which will become obsolete. Just my take on it. Jim is obviously a better business man than me |
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25th May 2021 8:15pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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As I have said on another thread, with the rapid pace of electrification of road transport (UPS vans going all-electric, Amazon doing the same, and so many EVs about to be released in the coming year) hasn't Mr Ratcliffe's decision to go with a BMW powerplant put his baby out of date before we even know a release date. I heard that one of the reasons he went with a BMW engine was to get them to sell it through their dealerships, or at least for them to be a contact point for customers. Shouldn't he have gone with a motor and batteries from the start? Doesn't this show a lack of vision? Seriously, Ineos may release it into a pool of 4x4s with a strong EV set-up. The Jeep Wrangler Magneto; JLR shifting the Defender to at least a hybrid and probably full EV; Ford announcing (this morning) an all-electric future (and their new F-150)... As you may have gathered from my comments, I'm not a fan of the Grenadier or Mr Ratcliffe (because I wanted it to look more modern and built in Britain), but I really do believe that the Grenadier is going to be out of date on the very day it is released. Yes, I know there has been talk of using Hyundai's hydrogen fuel cell system, but I believe (maybe wrongly) that hydrogen is going to get by-passed. Now left.
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25th May 2021 8:31pm |
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| LandRoverAnorak Member Since: 17 Jul 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 11240 
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I know it's off topic but relevant to the immediate discussion: I came across this article on the BBC news site today about the need for increased mining to support a greener future - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57234610.
The really interesting bit is this:
In the context of all of that, the load capacity of the local power distribution network seems to pale into insignificance. Darren 110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia |
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25th May 2021 9:43pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Yes, I've read something like this, and the argument that it would be cheaper and more practical to develop synthetic fuels (efuels) and keep internal combustion engines going (and not switch to electric). But manufacturers are 100% going down the EV route - big time. If we say 'short term' is the next 20 years, I can't see efuels coming to fruition before that. Maybe engines will phase out...then phase back in! Now left.
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25th May 2021 10:25pm |
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