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excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5736

1999 Defender 110 Td5 SW Caledonian Blue

Oil leak/oil mist - rocker gasket half moon

I know I have an oil leak from the rear halfmoon, despite sealant/new gaskets its the same.
Yesterday after a good run down the motorway I had another look and still wet with oil.
But also noticed oil mist escaping from the rear rocker gasket seal.

A few months ago I did replace the DCV(non genuine) between the rocker cover and the turbo pipe to see if that helped with leaks but didn't.

Having seen the oil mist this might account for some of the oil in the engine bay?

How to stop it?

TBH I think I have given up trying to stop the oil leak and accept it.

I did some reading up on the DCV and found this snippet;
An oil separator plate is included in the camshaft cover which removes the heavy particles of oil before the
crankcase gas leaves via the camshaft cover port.
The rocker cover features circular chambers which promote swirl in the oil mist emanating from the cylinder
head and camshaft carrier. As the mist passes through the series of chambers between the rocker cover and oil
separator plate, oil particles are thrown against the separator walls where they condense and fall back into the
cylinder head via two air inlet holes located at each end of the rocker
cover.
The breather valve is a pressure depression limiting valve which progressively closes as engine speed increases,
thereby limiting the depression in the crankcase.

The air inlet holes mentioned, are these external facing to the engine bay or the ones in the separator plate? 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

29th Apr 2021 9:41am

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3188

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Recently replaced the top cover gasket on family Defender as it was also leaking from the half moon..
I added some sealant around the grommets as I was re using the old ones. IIRC the rear 2 bolts, the gasket is outboard of the 2 screws, so I suspected that the grommets should do a bit more sealing over there.
Good luck. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

29th Apr 2021 10:32am

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4392

It is worth saying at this point that some rocker cover gaskets are better than others, only I have found Britpart to be very good, not too soft.

Additionally, over-tightening the rocker cover can cause the seal to deform, especially the half moon (flexes outwards) portion and leaks will happen.

The RC bolts are meant to be torqued down to just 9Nm (barely nipped up to most), above that and the gasket will deform.

The good news is that the TD5 doesn't suffer from vacuum pump related over-pressurising like the 200 and 300 tdi engines. But, it is worth pondering on if your RC cover is properly installed, is the engine over-pressurising (RC being the weakest link) and what might be causing it?! Could just be heat due to re-mapping... or more suck from raising the turbo boost pressure...

My TD5 breathes a little heavily and after 8 months of decent driving there was about 50ml of oil in the provent catch can. Not much but better in the provent than in the intercooler.

Hate oil leaks

29th Apr 2021 3:08pm

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5736

Cheers Dinnu. I might just go for another gasket and more sealant.
GeoBloke - The td5 does have a mild tune +10-15bhp.
I did use a torque wrench last time set to the correct setting and managed to shear a bolt.

I don't have a Provent - maybe my intercool is self lubed….

Its quite annoying. Even using GenLR ones. With and without sealant it leaks! 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

29th Apr 2021 3:19pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4392

Quote:
Cheers Dinnu. I might just go for another gasket and more sealant.
GeoBloke - The td5 does have a mild tune +10-15bhp.
I did use a torque wrench last time set to the correct setting and managed to shear a bolt. Sad
I don't have a Provent - maybe my intercool is self lubed….

Its quite annoying. Even using GenLR ones. With and without sealant it leaks!

Sheared and RC bolt.... Blimey

The provent (or knock-off versions) are a good idea and an easy mod. You'd be amazed how much oil ends up in your intercooler... I was...

A good (and unfortunately retired) indy LR garage I was friendly with would always use Sikaflex sealer on the gaskets and I can promise you it worked well, too well.... Took ages to get the blinkin' RC off again

It didn't leak though...

Are you likely to do any deep water-crossings in the next month or so? If not, re-do the RC seal, torque it down and pop the RC hose in to a plastic bottle (wire wool inside would be good). Seal up the post-turbo connection. Drive around for a while and see if the RC seal leaks. If not then it isn't the turbo that is causing the oil to be pushed out the seal. Additionally you'll catch any oil coming down the RC pipe, which will be interesting to see how much oil is by-passing the RC baffles.

Worth a play for the price of raiding the recycling box and a roll of electrical tape.

29th Apr 2021 6:04pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3188

Overt tightening the rocker cover bolts will not overcompress the gasket, as the screws fit over a grommet with metal bushing. The metal bushing is designed to provide the required compression of the gasket. Of course overtightening will cause other damage, worse case if you damage the face of the camshaft carrier.
Purchased both Britpart and Genuine. Britpart comes better packed, and as regards hardness, I think it was just a tad harder than genuine. I installed genuine, but did not unpack the britpart one, so did not have a closer check on quality. I like to apply a smear of RTV, just enough to give piece of mind.
9Nm is correct. My torque wrench starts at 10ftlb which is already 13.5Nm... just nip them by hand. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

29th Apr 2021 6:52pm

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5736

geobloke wrote:
Quote:
Cheers Dinnu. I might just go for another gasket and more sealant.
GeoBloke - The td5 does have a mild tune +10-15bhp.
I did use a torque wrench last time set to the correct setting and managed to shear a bolt. Sad
I don't have a Provent - maybe my intercool is self lubed….

Its quite annoying. Even using GenLR ones. With and without sealant it leaks!

Sheared and RC bolt.... Blimey

The provent (or knock-off versions) are a good idea and an easy mod. You'd be amazed how much oil ends up in your intercooler... I was...

A good (and unfortunately retired) indy LR garage I was friendly with would always use Sikaflex sealer on the gaskets and I can promise you it worked well, too well.... Took ages to get the blinkin' RC off again It didn't leak though...

Are you likely to do any deep water-crossings in the next month or so? If not, re-do the RC seal, torque it down and pop the RC hose in to a plastic bottle (wire wool inside would be good). Seal up the post-turbo connection. Drive around for a while and see if the RC seal leaks. If not then it isn't the turbo that is causing the oil to be pushed out the seal. Additionally you'll catch any oil coming down the RC pipe, which will be interesting to see how much oil is by-passing the RC baffles.

Worth a play for the price of raiding the recycling box and a roll of electrical tape.

No water crossings planned. But I like the idea of re-routing via tube via a bottle. I will have a look at that after the weekend at Donnington. 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

30th Apr 2021 8:32am

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4392

Quote:
No water crossings planned. But I like the idea of re-routing via tube via a bottle. I will have a look at that after the weekend at Donnington.

I was just reading the Alive website and they even suggest this action:

Quote:
There is deliberately no fitment for the engine breather hose, and so this should ideally be run through a seperate oil catch tank, and vented to atmosphere. The oil vapour from the breather system, condenses to create a fine film of oil on all components downstream of the turbocharger compressor outlet. Turbo boost hoses coat with oil, as do the internals of the intercooler (acting as an insulator!), the inlet manifold and cylinder inlet ports. If you want the best performance and efficiency from your engine, then re-routing the breather away from the air intake is the way to go!

I might consider venting to atmosphere myself for daily driving

I thought you might also like to see the Provent setup whilst we are talking about it. What you can't see is the drain pipe and drain off tap that sits on top of the chassis rail.

Click image to enlarge

30th Apr 2021 10:11am

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4392

Dinnu wrote:
Overt tightening the rocker cover bolts will not overcompress the gasket, as the screws fit over a grommet with metal bushing. The metal bushing is designed to provide the required compression of the gasket. Of course overtightening will cause other damage, worse case if you damage the face of the camshaft carrier.
Purchased both Britpart and Genuine. Britpart comes better packed, and as regards hardness, I think it was just a tad harder than genuine. I installed genuine, but did not unpack the britpart one, so did not have a closer check on quality. I like to apply a smear of RTV, just enough to give piece of mind.
9Nm is correct. My torque wrench starts at 10ftlb which is already 13.5Nm... just nip them by hand.

You are absolutely right Dinnu, my mistake, I had forgotten about those metal bushings and yes I went out to Miffy and double checked. I have not had two brands side by side, but it would be interesting to see whether they are exactly the same or more than likely not. Perhaps a test is required next service...

30th Apr 2021 10:18am

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5736

Cheers Geobloke

So...
From RC > pipe to Provent.
Provent > drain pipe via a tap.

and blanked off the original feed into the DCV ?

Can turbos cause pressure to go back into the RC?

And what is the orange pipe for around the radiator hose? 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

30th Apr 2021 10:31am

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4392

Quote:

Cheers Geobloke

No problem

Quote:

So...
From RC > pipe to Provent.
Provent > drain pipe via a tap.

and blanked off the original feed into the DCV ?

Pretty much. Although I have the complete circuit at the moment: RC > Provent > DCV > Turbo outlet

I am going to give the venting to atmos and blanking at the DCV a go. Why not... Can always revert.

Quote:
Can turbos cause pressure to go back into the RC?

I wondered that as well... The question is what is inside the DCV? it must be a one-way valve, or is it?

Quote:
And what is the orange pipe for around the radiator hose?

Ah the orange pipe is in fact a clear pipe with anti-freeze in it. A while ago now during a service the original black coolant return pipe fractured, it was very brittle. So I replaced it with a clear pipe so I could see air bubbles bleeding back in to the expansion tank. At the time I was having a few over-pressurising moments that of course turned out to be a head gasket and the clear pipe was a window on what was going on. Not an essential mod but a handy diagnostic aide if required

30th Apr 2021 11:47am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16858

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Asked:

Geobloke wrote:
I am going to give the venting to atmos and blanking at the DCV a go. Why not...

And answered:

gov.co.uk wrote:
Under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulations 61(7) and 61A(3)) and the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 42) it is an offence to use on a road a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet.

The potential penalties are £1,000 for a car and £2,500 for a van, lorry or bus.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 75) it is an offence to alter a vehicle in such a way that the use of the vehicle on a road would be unlawful. A person altering the vehicle (if they knew or believed that the vehicle would be used on the road) could be found guilty of an offence under the Act.

Potential penalties are unlimited fines.

30th Apr 2021 11:57am

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4392

Quote:
And answered:

gov.co.uk wrote:
Under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulations 61(7) and 61A(3)) and the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 42) it is an offence to use on a road a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet.

The potential penalties are £1,000 for a car and £2,500 for a van, lorry or bus.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 75) it is an offence to alter a vehicle in such a way that the use of the vehicle on a road would be unlawful. A person altering the vehicle (if they knew or believed that the vehicle would be used on the road) could be found guilty of an offence under the Act.

Potential penalties are unlimited fines.

Thank you for that Blackwolf, very interesting. If this is the case why would a very well known company be advertising and selling items for this exact procedure? I suppose it could be a case of it is "up to the owner" but still curious. I wonder once going through a Provent and a secondary filter how much "pollutant" would be left in the emission. Also I suppose under this legislation any EGR delete, de-cat or centre box removal and ECU remaps would also be frowned upon as they all alter the emissions of said vehicle too. Interesting.

30th Apr 2021 12:42pm

excossack

Member Since: 22 Feb 2012
Location: North West
Posts: 5736

Update (at last)
I removed the pipe from the feeding into the DCV and with the engine at idle, I noticed some fumes(for want of a better word) exiting the pipe. No oil leaks from the half moon but I was at idle.
I let the car idle for a few minutes while I checked screen wash etc.

With the pipe re-reconnected the fumes then exited via the rear of the rocker gasket/half moon area.

Not having any connectors or additonal piping I wasnt able to re-route the hoses to go for a run to really test for oil leaks.

Not sure what this tells me other than the fumes don't appear to be getting sucked into the pipe work as much as they should be ? 1999 Defender TD5 110

Regards
John M0VAZ
Econet Station 48 no clock

30th Jan 2022 2:52pm

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