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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1285   
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I am pleased JLR are following rival Ineos
 in looking to develop a hydrogen powered solution.
I know little about the economics or practicality of hydrogen production/distribution, etc, but it does seem like a better solution than heavy batteries for larger vehicles. I guess it will depend on the supporting infrastructure though and ease of access to refuelling points. Probably easier to generate and distribute electricity in developing countries than manufacture and store hydrogen. I also think it is important to have a viable alternative to electric vehicles as I worry about the electricity suppliers monopoly once we are all pushed into electric vehicles and electric domestic heating. |
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15th Jun 2021 7:45am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018 
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16th Jun 2021 6:34am |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3341 
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I am no expert in hydrogen production, but I remember watching a CPD on electric vehicle infrastructure where they were talking about hydrogen fuel cells. The presentation implied that one of the big sticking points with the use of hydrogen was the high energy requirements in it's production. In other words, hydrogen fuel cells with the present technology are not efficient. They use more electricity making hydrogen compared to using the same electricity to power EV vehicles.
Not sure if they took into consideration the energy requirements for mining the battery raw materials 
As I said, I am no expert and just repeating what I heard. Not even sure the above is absolutely true. I have become very cynical about CPD's (which I am required to do for work) as they are nearly always presented or sponsored by a company with something to sell. This one was presented by a multi-national company who can see an enormous income stream from selling electric vehicle charging infrastructure. If we all started using hydrogen fuel cells, this would be the end of that income stream for them. They have no buy-in for hydrogen 
For large vehicles and trains (where there are no overhead lines), hydrogen seems to be the logical answer. |
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16th Jun 2021 9:48am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Yes, I've seen similar presentations, I guess only time will tell whether this becomes significant for most private vehicle users.
 Click image to enlarge |
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16th Jun 2021 10:00am |
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| boxoftricks Member Since: 06 Feb 2019 Location: Home Counties Posts: 745 
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Interesting debate. What interests me is how we will recycle all of the batteries once we start to see an increase in volumes.
Also the development of carbon-neutral fuels for combustion engines that the likes of Shell are developing. I feel electrical vehicles are a short-term stop gap, not a long-term viable solution. |
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16th Jun 2021 11:28am |
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| windy81 Member Since: 14 Mar 2018 Location: North Wales Posts: 311  
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Norway seems to be best suited to produce Hydrogen with the excess electric they have available it's a no brainer.
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16th Jun 2021 12:39pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Plenty of investment seems to be going into recycling batteries ~ JLR are even in on it: https://www.defender2.net/forum/post899092...ing#899092 |
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16th Jun 2021 12:48pm |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3341
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Batteries with Lithium are very difficult to recycle. It’s the elephant in the room that everyone is avoiding.
There are talks that vehicle batteries will be repurposed into energy storage. I guess that is an option but it seems strange to use a half baked battery in energy storage? At some point the battery will be no good and require recycling. It’s a bit like a nuclear power station. Cheap plentiful low carbon fuel whilst it works. Very expensive to build and very expensive and time consuming to decommission. |
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16th Jun 2021 1:22pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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And there's a potential tie up between nuclear and hydrogen that could benefit both:
http://blog.policy.manchester.ac.uk/sci-te...6580407296 |
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16th Jun 2021 1:37pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3997 
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Using them for energy storage is not a bad idea. You can make up for the lost capacity by just adding a few more than you would with brand new ones. Weight and volume are not usually a problem in buildings. It is still just kicking the can down the road though, as they'll eventually still need disposal. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS |
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16th Jun 2021 1:56pm |
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| boxoftricks Member Since: 06 Feb 2019 Location: Home Counties Posts: 745
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Churchill Car Insurance reveals that around 384,000 vehicles were written off last year, amounting to over 1,000 every day, or one every 90 seconds (2017) So who is going to collect that little lot up each year if all-electric. Once they have been in a crash they can't be repurposed.... |
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16th Jun 2021 2:23pm |
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| oop north Member Since: 23 Mar 2016 Location: Preston-ish Posts: 56
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Nissan and BMW have been looking at recycling batteries for years - but as I understand it the plans have been held back by the batteries lasting much longer in vehicles than was originally anticipated - there are Nissan Leafs being used as taxis with 300K + miles on original batteries. VW are looking into recycling in a big way. Lots of people are I am very keen on the idea of home storage - we have a wind turbine (and I want tot add solar) but we cannot use it as it is being generated - having some storage would be a big step forward. The prices have been silly - Tesla want something like £9k for 13kWh battery (which holds about £2 of electricity and so cannot pay its way within less than 12-15 years or more), but they are coming down. And storage can smooth out peak demand on the National Grid very nicely - albeit it doesn't solve every problem I dont quite understand why so many people are happy to think the world will get things sorted for hydrogen (despite its volatile nature, its gross inefficiency compared to charging a battery and the complete lack of any infrastructure - the nearest one to me is 200+ miles away, there are only 11 in the country, the filling stations are expensive and cannot fill that many cars in a day, and it works out around £50 to fill a current Mirai so more expensive than filling up my iPace on a public charger unless I use the most expensive possible rapid), but battery engined vehicles have insurmountable problems |
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16th Jun 2021 2:29pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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With the modular nature of the battery packs, made up of many batteries, used by most (if not all manufacturers) then repurposing all but the failed elements is possible. Failed elements can be recycled ~ the addage "where there's muck, there's brass" springs to mind. |
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17th Jun 2021 7:03am |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Ineos investing further into hydrogen:
"INEOS Energy announces £25 million cornerstone backing for HydrogenOne, London’s first listed fund dedicated to clean hydrogen" https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-group/ine...drogenone/ |
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6th Jul 2021 7:15am |
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