 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > Update Episode 2 is out. The suspension |
 
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16856   
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It is interesting to compare the two different corporate ethoi (which I believe is the plural of ethos).
I can't help but feel that if you went to an Ineos dealer to talk about a vehicle similar to the classic Defender you will be treated with respect and interest, if you went to JLR you'll either be told that you have misunderstood your own requirements and really need something quite different, or possibly just shown the (showroom) door. |
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5th May 2020 10:18am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3995 
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It was worth starting this thread just so that Blackwolf could unleash the word "ethoi" on us unsuspecting readers! I am going to use that at my work team meeting on Friday. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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5th May 2020 11:15am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16856
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 Even I had to look that one up!  |
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5th May 2020 11:27am |
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| Zed Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: In the woods Posts: 3009 
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Yeah, great word. Could also come in handy for lockdown Scrabble. WARNING.
This post may contain sarcasm. |
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5th May 2020 11:30am |
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| skyrover Member Since: 14 Feb 2014 Location: Northumberland Posts: 17
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4 link suspension... addressing one of the current Defender's weakness's, decent front articulation.
Excellent  |
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6th May 2020 8:02am |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415 
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I'm liking the thinking behind this a lot. The only pity is it's not being designed from the ground up as an EV. Having taken a Tesla out for a weekend long test drive, I think there is no doubt that is where we are heading, and quite soon too. The power control, the (lack of) noise, the immediate torque, the storage space, the lack of gears, the lack of exhaust pipes that break, the regen, the handy charging at home (or even charging when stopping for a pee break)...
Basically Ineos should've acquired Bollinger and scaled production to the point they could cut costs! Even despite that, an Ineos could be very tempting based on what we've heard so far. |
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26th May 2020 9:30pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3995
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I think having a battery as an option might have merit, going fully electric across the range for this type of vehicle is not a good move yet I don't think. Batteries are just not good enough and/or cheap enough for this market yet. The Bollinger is heavy, too heavy for it to be driven on a car license in the EU (although that is at least partially down to them trying to avoid certain US safety regs) and it is going to be way more expensive than what I think will be the Grenadier starting price. No one is going to head anywhere remote or underdeveloped in big battery powered 4x4 just yet. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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26th May 2020 9:48pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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I agree the Bollinger is too expensive, but I think a big part of that is they don't seem to have managed to closed the needed investment to do economies of scale (plus also some bits are probably unnecessarily good, like portal axles). I'm not sure if the car itself is too heavy or more like the payload weight. For the EU this kind of vehicle definitely needs to be registrable as a car, I agree.
However I think an EV needs to be designed from the ground up to be an EV. The optimal layout is completely different from a combustion engine + transmission system. That's where you get cool things like the Bollinger's ability to have planks go all the way through, or Tesla's front storage (froot? frunk?). A chassis designed around a battery creates fantastic stability through a low centre of gravity. Also with the way battery tech is developing now, it's very soon going to be a complete no-brainer to switch to EVs completely. Even the US Army is looking that way. The problem Ineos might face is they are effectively designing for 'yesterday's tech' and as a completely new company there's a chance they get left behind before anything even hits the streets. With the upcoming Cybertruck boasting a 500 mile range, charging points becoming even more common than petrol stations, the ability to charge (albeit slowly) with solar, I think the writing is on the wall. It's a very real possibility that overlanding will soon be easier in an EV than an ICE (electricity sockets are, after all, ubiquitous). Hell, someone crossed Africa in a previous generation Nissan Leaf, which is hardly the cutting edge of electric tech... Interestingly there's seemingly nobody in Europe doing a utility offroad 4x4 EV, so there's probably an open spot in the market for just that. |
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26th May 2020 11:22pm |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3995
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I mostly agree Setok, but I just think it is maybe 5 to 10 years too soon for this particular vehicle type and market. The tech just needs time to mature a bit and for some standardisation on things like charging points for example. By then, batteries will be better, there will be more public confidence in tech. Also, this is a product aimed at conservative buyers, and on the business side, fleets buyers can be a very conservative bunch. There’s a phrase I heard recently, ”no one ever got fired for buying a Transit”, in a discussion about switching to alternative fuelled vans. Some companies view the switch as too risky for now. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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26th May 2020 11:44pm |
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| Arkaig Member Since: 01 Feb 2020 Location: Highland Posts: 41 
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I agree the Bollinger is too expensive. I'm keeping a close eye on the Rivian R1S. I note they have advanced engineering facilities in Woking.
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27th May 2020 10:28pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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The switch is happening surprisingly rapidly. Just recently Toyota announced they'll be bringing out EVs as the demand has been greater than they predicted. Charging point standards are pretty much set in Europe (Type 2 / CCS). Ineos is still a couple of years away at least, so battery tech will have evolved even more then. Effectively they are making a bet on old tech which, as a new company without a ready product can be risky. I'd argue it's actually more risky for a new company to pander to conservative buyers than to go with the new, as the conservative buyers are going to stick with their Toyotas and whatnots anyway, rather than trust some completely new company. So could be better to come out that would make the forward thinking fleet buyers start to stack the expenses up (fuel, maintenance) and perhaps come to the conclusion that they could give this a go. |
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28th May 2020 12:11pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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The Rivian is interesting, but seems more like a luxury offroader (reminds me most of the previous generation Disco) than something that would compete with pickups and other utility vehicles. Tesla's Cybertruck actually seems like more of a 'working man' vehicle, though it's a tad big... |
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28th May 2020 12:13pm |
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| Arkaig Member Since: 01 Feb 2020 Location: Highland Posts: 41
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For the pickup market, Rivian offer the R1T truck which is available now for preorder. https://rivian.com/r1t/ |
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28th May 2020 12:22pm |
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| Setok Member Since: 16 Jan 2009 Location: Helsinki Posts: 415
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I don't think any of those Rivians are really intended at the 'working' market. The messaging, materials and the price seems more geared for the 'adventure' type of people (=people who drive around town but like to feel adventurous
 . Nothing necessarily wrong with that, mind you (I kind of like those Rivians), but it's a different segment I feel.
I mean the prices start at around 70K, and you're not even getting the 400 mile range with that. That's almost double what Tesla is claiming for the Cybertruck and right up there with the new Defender. Which actually leads to an interesting question: if you were paying that kind of money, why would you take a Defender and not a Rivian (assuming it was actually in production)? This of course is something Ineos will have to think carefully about. If it's going to be a real farmer / work vehicle, it can't be too precious. |
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28th May 2020 1:32pm |
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