 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Output shaft failure, Forum Survey |
 
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3184   
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Aren't the slines supposed to be in full contact? Was the shaft working its way out of the female splines? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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31st May 2021 12:22pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16856  
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Some of failures are undoubtedly of shafts which have not been fully inserted, either due to incorrect assembly or due to the spring ring failing to retain the parts in service. This does seem to be only a small proportion of the total failures, however.
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31st May 2021 12:49pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1350 
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This photo shows the contact area of the splines.
The shaft does not go fully into the cup.  Click image to enlarge |
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31st May 2021 1:57pm |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 09 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2260 |
Very clear now dsc!Any reason its like that or is it just sloppy wasteful design?
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31st May 2021 3:19pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1350
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I'm going to throw this out there, just an idea that I'm happy to shot down on or proved wrong by someone that's tried it or knows better. Either way, I'm not going to spend time and money developing it.
Does anyone have experience with surface coating treatments on gears and splines? Similar to Titanium Nitride, the gold coloured coating that's often seen on drill bits these days. There's a whole range of coatings now that give enhanced wear resistance, corrosion resistance and reduced friction in many applications. My own experience is with cutting and forming tools, where the life of the tool can extended in orders of 10x the life uncoated. Many of the conditions present in a misaligned shaft spline could be helped with a coating on either one, or both, splined surfaces of the shaft or cup. A very hard coating would wear less. Low co-efficient of friction would help with the lack of lubrication. Enhanced corrosion resistance would stop the rusty grinding dust. Diamond Like Carbon (DLC) is the one coating that springs to mind with the correct properties. Wether the substrate materials are suitable for that coating remains to be seen. A bit of info, https://www.wallworkht.co.uk/content/diamolith_dlc/?bk This wouldn't fix any alignment issue, but could extend the life from 25,000 miles to say 250,000. I'm sure many here would find that more acceptable than the standard part. |
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31st May 2021 6:46pm |
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| Gleo Member Since: 01 Mar 2016 Location: Mayo Posts: 43 
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Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Some more pics showing the MT82 output shaft wear. Click image to enlarge |
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31st May 2021 9:43pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1350
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Hi Gleo,
How many miles have you done with that one? Anywhere between 10,000 and 60,000 seems to be normal. Cheers! |
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31st May 2021 10:07pm |
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| Tilly Member Since: 04 May 2016 Location: Grimsby Posts: 36 
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1. 2010
2. 2.4 3. Y- now changed due to the 'clunk' and needing a new clutch. 4. 93K Replaced a few days ago. Failure was on its way but not imminent yet. Lots of slack on the splines leading to a good clunk on taking up drive. Clutch springs were also all loose on removal of the old clutch which didnt help with taking off smoothly from a standing start. Replaced with the LOF solid output shaft and an LOF clutch. Much nicer to drive again now! Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge |
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1st Jun 2021 11:43am |
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| Gleo Member Since: 01 Mar 2016 Location: Mayo Posts: 43
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Click image to enlarge Interesting that the wear is fairly much in the same place as mine. 60,000km on mine. I had similar issues with the OEM clutch and now installing the LOF Power Clutch. My old OEM Clutch threw a torsion spring, surprised it didn't do more damage bouncing around behind the pressure plate. Click image to enlarge |
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1st Jun 2021 12:24pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 421  
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Does anybody know why the splines on the MT82 and the Land Rover end are différent ?
Possibly they did not want to modify the female connection in the Getrag MT82 unit ? Could this also cause the failure, because the smaller surface of the splines cannot resist the higher torque in low gear ? I'm just wondering because mine failed while climbing a steep trail in low gear ... |
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1st Jun 2021 8:48pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 421
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Does anybody know why the splines on the MT82 and the Land Rover end are différent ?
Possibly they did not want to modify the female connection in the Getrag MT82 unit ? Could this also cause the failure, because the smaller surface of the splines cannot resist the higher torque in low gear ? I'm just wondering because mine failed while climbing a steep trail in low gear ... |
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1st Jun 2021 8:48pm |
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| bear100 Member Since: 22 Mar 2010 Location: South Wales Posts: 1867  
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1. 2010
2. 2.4 3. No 4. 65k No issues at all with mine so far, had the death rattle from the clutch 5 years ago but nothing with the output shaft. 2016 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 TDV8 2010 110 XS Utility 2.4TDCI 2010 Range Rover Sport TDV8 (gone) 2007 Discovery HSE TDV6 (gone) 1993 110 csw 200 tdi (gone) 1994 90 HT 300 tdi (gone) 1994 discovery 300tdi (gone) 90 hybrid 3.5 v8 (gone) Range rover bobtail 3.5 v8 (gone) |
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1st Jun 2021 9:03pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16856
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I don't entirely understand what you're asking, the troublesome splines are there solely to extend the MT82 output shaft to reach the LT230 input gear. The coupling could have used any spline pattern, the distal end obviously has to match the LT230 input gear. The whole thing is Landrover, the only Ford element is the spline on the end of the MT82 main shaft. There is ample design data and power transfer data available in engineering texts for splined couplings, and the spline profile, pitch diameter, and length of the coupling provides a capability that comfortably exceeds the power and torque of the engine - splined couplings are generally well-understood, except perhaps by Landrover. Conceptually the design is sound, however the total lack of lubrication on most is not. Similarly if there is the slightest untoward movement in the coupling, fretting will eventually cause it to fail. Effectively it wears until its strength is compromised, then fails through overload. |
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1st Jun 2021 10:57pm |
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| Julie Member Since: 07 Oct 2017 Location: Nantes Posts: 421
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Possibly JLR do not fully undestand splined connections.
Why choose 2 différent spline patterns ? That's more plumbing than sound design ... The fine spline with smaller surfaces for transmission of torque may be a good option for any modern drivetrain without slack. The play in the drivetrain in combination with low range causes an angular moment acting on the spline (which will not be the case in an ordinary car / Transit without low range) The rough Land Rover spline is largely oversized and will résist. The refined Ford (Getrag) spline however is not and will therefore fail representing the rounded wave pattern in the pictures shown before. |
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2nd Jun 2021 9:46am |
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