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Member Since: 16 Oct 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 1342

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green
Alignment theories and why we'll never prove anything.





For good alignment, the machining of the gearbox, adapter and transfer box castings all have to be good.




If there's a problem with the bolt and dowel positions in relation to the shaft in the gearbox, transfer box or the adapter casting, this will cause misalignment.
Position errors.





Similarly, an angular error on any one of the machined faces will have a similar result.
Angular errors.





Add up small errors in all of these areas and that might explain why some are ok, some aren't and some are terrible.
I've probably overlooked a few other things, but I'm not a powertrain engineer. Very Happy

The only way to properly check all features for a particular vehicle would be to strip it down and measure each component on a CMM (Co-ordinate Measuring Machine). This would cost thousands of pounds per vehicle, not really practical for us to do.
We don't have access to production specifications and tolerances to see if any single feature is out of tolerance.
We also don't know the amount of misalignment, angular or position, that the system can cope with for an acceptable life.

So that's where we're at.
Good luck.
Post #775938 2nd Jun 2019 5:59pm
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 421

France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Land Rover defined all alignement tolerances. They're part of the production process.

Why focus on alignement issues? Tolerances can be measured and proven. A big risk for JLR.

Different levels of corrosion could also have chemical reasons = that influence the intensity of the corrosion process.

- grade of lubrication
- temperature changes (seasonal, daily (garage or street), coast, mountains ...)
- access of water, salt (coast / winter)
...

The user is the biggest factor :

= driving styles / tuning
= daily use / car as hobby
= heavy loads /
= stop and go / constant speed
...

Considering all of these aspects I do not bet on mechanics.


Last edited by Julie on 6th Jun 2019 7:01pm. Edited 3 times in total
Post #776392 6th Jun 2019 5:17pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3993

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Does the Ford gearbox of LR transfer box have similar issues in any other applications? If not, does that not suggest the adapter casing thingy is the most likely source of the problem? 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
Post #776398 6th Jun 2019 6:33pm
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LandRoverAnorak



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11240

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Orkney Grey
The shaft in question doesn't exist in other applications. It's specific to mating the LR transfer box to the Ford gearbox. Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia
Post #776403 6th Jun 2019 6:56pm
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PAT303



Member Since: 25 Feb 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 123

Australia 1998 Defender 110 300 Tdi SW Alpine White
Personally I believe 90% of all LR problems can be traced to drive line slack, think about it, every time you change gear, come on and off the peddle you have 2,000kg's of Defender loading and unloading every spline, joint, whatever, do it enough times, like thousands of times every month and somethings got to give. I would not replace a transfer on any LR without having the center diff at absolute minimum end float or better yet fit an ATB, it's the single biggest source of slack.
Post #776486 7th Jun 2019 11:06am
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16808

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Bluest wrote:
Does the Ford gearbox of LR transfer box have similar issues in any other applications? If not, does that not suggest the adapter casing thingy is the most likely source of the problem?


Both the Ford gearbox and the LT230 are widely used in other applications, without any other widely-reported instances of similar issues, however the Defender is the only application that I know of where the MT82 doesn't have an output flange for a propshaft. Clearly if the gearbox is directly driving a propshaft there will be no alignment issues.

That being said, it is inherently unlikely that there will be much variation in dimensions of the back end of the gearbox itself, since the overall alignment from front to rear of both the main and lay shafts is critical to the performance of the box, so whilst it is possible that the machining of the rear of the box to accomodate the extension housing may vary from one box to another, and hence be a cause of misalignment, personally I feel that it is more likely that the extension housing is the main suspect.

I also personally feel that the crappy clutch fitted to the Puma is probably not helping the life expectancy of the output adaptor shaft joint since as the springs take on a set and become less springy, then every clutch engagement become a little more aggressive to the coupling (especially if the vehicle is driven by someone who has the modern approach to clutch operation), and every torsional vibration from the engine (which should be damped by the clutch springs) will get passed on to the coupling.

I doubt that there is a single factor behind the failures, it will be an aggregation of different factors, although I still suspect that a tolerance issue is the primary causal factor.
Post #776493 7th Jun 2019 11:23am
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 421

France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
PAT303 wrote:
Personally I believe 90% of all LR problems can be traced to drive line slack, ...


From my experience the slack is an interesting candidate for the shaft failures.
My shaft failed in the Alpes after 2 weeks' U-turns every 200 m. And i followed very steep ways.

I grew somewhat tired of using my clutch "the traditional way" what rose the power of the slack.

It could have accelerated the failure
Post #776506 7th Jun 2019 1:35pm
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boxoftricks



Member Since: 06 Feb 2019
Location: Home Counties
Posts: 745

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Zermatt Silver
2010
2.4
Yes
110k changed not filed


Click image to enlarge



Click image to enlarge


Replaced with the clutch. LOF clutch and Land Rover shaft (well greased). Also replaced transfer box so interesting to see if that impacts life of new shaft.
Post #782200 20th Jul 2019 9:42am
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Mike_E



Member Since: 13 Apr 2017
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 160

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Aintree Green
so after my post on 27th March - the slop is back... changed at 42k miles, now at 46k miles. To be honest the slop seemed to come back after 2k miles...

Due to mileage I'm doing the clutch (clutchfix) and also putting in a ashcroft shaft.... and a ashcroft Lt230 with ATB... at £2k in parts I hope it fixes the issue!!

Will report back once its fitted.
Post #782206 20th Jul 2019 10:06am
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Santorini



Member Since: 09 Feb 2019
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 8

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 SW Santorini Black
1. 2015
2. 2.2
3. Yes
4. 14,000 miles
Post #782222 20th Jul 2019 10:46am
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Mike_E



Member Since: 13 Apr 2017
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 160

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Aintree Green
Mike_E wrote:
so after my post on 27th March - the slop is back... changed at 42k miles, now at 46k miles. To be honest the slop seemed to come back after 2k miles...

Due to mileage I'm doing the clutch (clutchfix) and also putting in a ashcroft shaft.... and a ashcroft Lt230 with ATB... at £2k in parts I hope it fixes the issue!!

Will report back once its fitted.


So I had the clutch done and can confirm the original one was totally shot. inner springs broken, able to rotate the sping assemblies by hand. Friction material was fine, but the flywheel had hot spots on it which was a worry. Whislt the mechanic was in there I had a ashcroft shaft fitted as I thought it was worn again, appears it was just the clutch getting worse.

The removed shaft is as new - but the interesting piece is that it was fitted without the blue grease.

Backlash and clunking much reduced - still a little backlash here and there but its a tiny bit in each diff. Car is transformed.

Given it was £2k for the box/clutch/shaft... and I needed a new flysheel too at £500... and it was £1100 in labour I bloody hoped it would drive better!

Mike
Post #786449 12th Aug 2019 11:55am
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skidrov



Member Since: 06 Oct 2013
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 51

Australia 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Fuji White
1, vehicle year of manufacture - 2010
2, engine type 2.4 or 2.2 - 2.4
3, is the Defender still running with the original output shaft? (Y/N) - N
4, vehicle milage at first shaft failure, or current milage on the original shaft if still running. - Did not fail, replaced at 116,000 km as a precaution with clutch change. BUT, on examination after extraction, was close to failing. Looked considerably worse than the pics included by boxoftricks a few posts above this one.

If the shaft has previously failed, please answer 5 & 6.

5, Has an Ashcroft modified part has been fitted? (Y/N) - Y, @ 116,000 km
6, vehicle milage at the second failure, or milage if still running. - just done, so only home-from-shop distances travelled.
Post #786551 13th Aug 2019 7:53am
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Irishdog



Member Since: 09 Mar 2018
Location: Sande
Posts: 10

Germany 
1. 2008
2. 2.4
3. Yes
4. 115000 kms

Prior to shipping out to Africa (Namibia), we decided to change out the Clutch and Output Shaft (Thanks to LOF-Clutches). On inspection both needed replacement as the clutch springs rattled and the splines were badly worn. Only 115000 kms from new!
Post #788668 26th Aug 2019 11:56am
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 4426

Ireland 
2008 Puma. 170,000+ kms. Still on original shaft. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai
Post #788995 27th Aug 2019 9:46pm
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Jak



Member Since: 08 Nov 2012
Location: Home
Posts: 4

Germany 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey
1, 2011
2, 2.4
3, Y
4, 90,000 km
Post #790968 6th Sep 2019 7:28pm
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