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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287   
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Hello Balvaig
You may well be right and thanks for the recommendation for a Connector Cleaner...I did resit giving these a squirt of WD40 at the time, thinking that they 'designed / installed' dry and I don't want to make this worse, but had read about 'contact cleaners' so put this off until more sure...the thing is they all looked like they didn't need cleaning. I sat there with a magnifying glass, and a water colour brush and gently cleaned each pin, and checked both it's alignment and seating position, I detected no movement, corrosion or anything that would give me any concern. I guess that's why I currently feel 'vulnerable' as my Defender appeared to be getting worst, with intermittent starting once every 2-3 months, moving to once a month then, probably each week...something appeared to be breaking down but semi functioning. I wrongly became convinced that it was either a failing Battery, Starter Motor, or an obvious Connection. What I should have done is just unplug one thing, check, reinstate and test...but i didn't so I don't know if it was the 10AS or IPAC...it may well be neither and I still have 'my gremlin'... 
Thanks again for the input from D2N...  SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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1st Feb 2017 12:43pm |
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| Balvaig Member Since: 19 Feb 2016 Location: Fife Posts: 719  
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I would only use contact cleaner where I have identified damp/corrosion. Don't particularly like WD40 in these circumstances.
What you have done in cleaning the connectors etc. is possibly your answer. You may well have inadvertently sorted the problem. You can get what is called a 'dry joint' on electrical circuits/connectors. This is where the solder or crimping looks ok but is not completing the circuit or has high resistance. Very difficult to find, but again dismantling the connectors can solve the problem. I would agree though that you will worry for a while that the problem will return. |
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1st Feb 2017 1:29pm |
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| dorsetsmith Member Since: 30 Oct 2011 Location: South West Posts: 4554 |
wiring and connectors may be your problem see below link
https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtZSoWFHDgnGjEo2khSBxxUMyu3W |
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1st Feb 2017 5:27pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287
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Thanks dorsetsmith...added to my X File...
I currently have a 'working' Defender, and have checked to see any logged fault codes (when it didn't)...there are none, using a ScangaugeII...I was hoping to see maybe something like... P1602 Immobiliser / engine control module communication error Do you know if these Codes are lost when the Main Battery is disconnected or is there some sort of a 'power supply' / 'backup battery' within the ECU, maintaining 'data'...  SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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1st Feb 2017 5:46pm |
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| dorsetsmith Member Since: 30 Oct 2011 Location: South West Posts: 4554 |
Not shore with ford ECU
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1st Feb 2017 5:55pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287
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Hello All
Well I'm back where I started...(possibly). After around 10 days of A Starting Defender (Tested 2 or 3 Times each day) She failed to start today and now (apparently) does not start at all...tried 4 times. In a way a problem that stays (more often than not) maybe easier to sort than an intermittent one (but I have been here before and tomorrow she may well fire into life). So my new approach is test one thing at a time and check again... Currently It appears that I have No 12V power at C0151-87 (checking again tomorrow to be sure). The Brown / Red Wire provides the Trigger Current to the Starter Motor...This wire connects (at some point unknown to me) to a green wire (Connector C0448-M C0182-M) that makes it way right to the Starter Motor. 
To recap so far New Main Battery, Starter Motor and Starter Rely, Main Battery and Transfer Box Earth Straps Cleaned and Refitted, IPAC and 10AS Connectors disconnected, Visually Checked, lightly cleaned and reconnected. Scangauge II reveals No Fault Codes. If I'm right there are a number of reasons why the Relay Starter wouldn't provide the required 12V trigger current as the ECM (Engine Control Module) is connected here via C0151-85 Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Could my problem be the Camshaft Position Sensor...
When she Starts she runs as she should, but would a CPS 'failing' possibly lead to my problem...
Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge
LR0 04492 Click image to enlarge Sensor Position on Engine Or is this unlikely...
I don't see where the Camshaft Position Sensor is connected to the ECM (if it is) there is a Crankshaft Position Sensor shown, but I assume this is a different Sensor...
Any thought welcome...(Thanks) SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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12th Feb 2017 11:26pm |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287
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Am I right to work with this diagram and does it really show the Earth Positions on a Defender...
Anyone got anything better...
Click image to enlarge I haven't checked All the Earths / I've only 'done' the two 'Main Earths' Battery and Gearbox (are there more... )
Is the ECM Earthed through its Fixings to the Bulkhead...
I'm so hoping that I get to something 'visually obvious' here, or exchange a Part that achieves a long term fix. Thanks to those who have helped me with this... SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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13th Feb 2017 12:09am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19535
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Have you checked the ignition feeds on the ignition barell?
Without looking into in depth that wire seems to be yellow. That could well signify something with the actual ignition wiring. I wouldn't get too tied up with the actual electronics as they rarely do go wrong. It's more likely a phisical connector or possibly a wire break. As it's intermittent it should to me like broken cable, or connector pin. As suggested it only takes one. You'd have thought it would detect it and flag it but it's obviously not quite that clever. There are various relays under the drivers seatbox that are also critical to starting and running. Worth checking Relay bases too. Hope you can find the issue, I know how much of a headache it can be. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧 |
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13th Feb 2017 12:12am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287
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Hi custom90steve...
Ignition Switch The Permanent Live to the Ignition Switch via A59 (NW / Brown - White Stripe)...is OK Turn Ignition Switch to Crank Position and the Permanent Live (NW / Brown - White Stripe) is switched and Connected to the (WR / White Red) Wire and sent to Starter Relay...so OK The Ignition Switch looks to be a Lucas part (early 1970's... ) which despite falling short of later more secure versions (which lead me to fit a X-Defend) does appear to work as it should on mine.
I have removed the X-Defend replacing the induction coil in its original position and this makes no difference and had run the Defender for 6 months with the induction coil 'relocated' to its nearby position, so am reasonably sure it is not this... I would have thought that other D2N members who have fitted the X-Defend would have possibly had the same issue as I'm experiencing if this was a problem Thanks c90s... SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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13th Feb 2017 12:32am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16858 
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Have you tried running with PI disabled yet?
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13th Feb 2017 9:49am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287
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Hello blackwolf...NO
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic10829....ostic+tool Don't have the tool to do this...and in truth don't really understand why it should (may be) this Am I right that if the PI is OFF All that is taken out of the starting sequence is the energising of the Induction Loop around the Ignition Switch and its 'pairing' with the Key Fob at Start Up...
I think also the Fob Communicates with the Induction Loop periodically when the engine is running...but don't know this Have spoken to Land Rover about this very issue..they say they have never switched off the PI on the request of a customer (one dealer one view point maybe) I also spoke to Paul Brown at Technozen about this and he felt my 'problem' lay else where (but maybe not... )
https://www.technozen-electronics.co.uk/la...-services/ I'm going to replace All Relays under the Drivers Seat and in the process check / pinch tighten all crimp connectors for the incoming / outgoing wires This issue is starting to get to me... All <30 successful starts in the last week and half have been made without stopping the vehicle 'off site'... I just don't trust it currently so have to sort this
I also listed what I'v done and what I'm experiencing to Land Rover and I could just tell they had a reluctance to take it on...they are booked out for around a month ahead...with 'easy' work unbolt X bolt on X, service etc and probably don't want to subject a customer to a 'search and find' exercise where their financial tolerance would be tested...all with a vehicle that can run OK multiple times and then not One developing aspect to this is when she fails she appears to fail for longer, which i'm taking as a positive in my quest to get to the bottom of this thanks for you help here... SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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13th Feb 2017 10:55am |
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| agentmulder Member Since: 16 Apr 2016 Location: Outer Space Posts: 1324 
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It's not just the pins that can be faulty, it's actually more likely to be what Balvaig suggests, which is the wire connection to the connector pins. Sometimes soldered, sometimes crimped, sometimes just just jammed in to a kind of spring loaded thingy. In a multiplug cable the shortest wire often takes the lion share of any tension and can break, but then be 'connected' again when the force that broke it is removed. Sometimes all it takes is temperature differences or a butterfly farting in Antartica to make or break the connection again. Similar effect applies to joints on PCBs
A way to test it is to 'beep out' the cable with a multimeter continuity tester (home made version could be an LED, resistor and small battery if you like). Access - as with many automobile issues - will be a pain in the rear 
Sorry, it's no help at the moment though, just keep being methodical  Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants... |
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13th Feb 2017 11:19am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16858
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RE. PI, yes, all that is removed is the dialogue between the car and the fob.
The reason I suggest turning it off is that it takes less than a minute and if it changes nothing, you've ruled out a very common source of problems. If it solves your problem you have immediately identified your problem. All for the sake of one minute or so and testing over several days. Even if you choose to leave it disabled, does it increase your risk of theft? I doubt it. The villains won't know it's off, and they get round PI anyway (it is very easy to do). The vehicle when parked and locked is still immobilised. If disabling it makes no difference, turn it on again. I can only speak from my own experience, which I mentioned earlier in this thread. When I bought my 2007 Puma, it would fail to start about one time in 4. Starting performance improved when I tightened the relay connections under the seat but still failed perahps one in ten times. If I operated the electric windows whilst waiting for the glowplug warning light to extinguish (ie whilst the fob/coil dialogue is in progress) it would NEVER start. This was 100% repeatable. Main dealer was flummoxed. I wasted weeks trying to diagnose this, then I switched off PI. After that I couldn't provoke starter failure and it never failed to start. So an instant diagnosis with 100% certainty of the area in which the problem lay, and easy enough then to sort out. |
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13th Feb 2017 11:44am |
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| MartnH Member Since: 30 Oct 2017 Location: Nsw Posts: 28 
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HI guys,,
sorry to digress but today the 10AS Unit in my defender caught on fire... actually not fire but lots of smoke. the upper middle three pins on the grey plug and short circuited... should I replace the unit? my understanding is that its not exactly a 10AS but a updated one... please help thanks Martin |
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15th Mar 2018 9:15am |
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