 | Home > Off Topic > Brexit a right carry on Farce.... |
 
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| David T Member Since: 01 Sep 2016 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 190   
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One thing we can be 100% sure of, over the next few days there's going to be fireworks.
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4th Nov 2016 1:59pm |
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| ian series 1 Member Since: 17 Nov 2014 Location: south Posts: 3127 
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 80" 80" 86" 88" 90"
Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered. |
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4th Nov 2016 2:10pm |
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| shaggydog Member Since: 12 Aug 2012 Location: Kent Posts: 3347 
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David I think you just won
 Running Restoration Thread http://www.defender2.net/forum/post323197.html#323197
Self confessed mileage hunter  |
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4th Nov 2016 2:50pm |
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5132  
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Projectblue so that our disagreement on word order does not rumble on, these are the facts as I and many people see them this morning, including the world press.
I am in no way arguing of your right to reply if my words have offended your beliefs, however, I can only rely on evidences and truths as they are given out. Ms Miller, 51, is an investment manager and hedge fund manager whose birth country is Guyana, she does not hold a British Passport and her native status is Ghanaian, she does not have naturalised British citizenship, even though she is reported to have grown up in Britain. If she as alleged holds so much empathy for certain British people and their rights to vote in a referendum, then it would be prudent for her to have applied for British citizenship in her past. Although as Guyana was part of the commonwealth before independence, she may have had the right to vote in the UK EU referendum. Ms Miller is by definition a foreigner i.e. none national and again as the papers have reported this morning as a foreigner, along with many of her team supporters, she has called into question our constitution for her own ends. Those are non-arguable facts. While I respect that are Laws are not just for nationals, her actions have set a precedent in our democracy that in my opinion is a dangerous paradigm, one whose methodology will have far reaching consequences. As you will no doubt have seen in all this morning’s papers even the broadsheets, they have more or less reported the facts as per my original thread starter. It is your right to have construed that I invoked the Little Englander ‘Johnny Foreigner’ approach, but my argument and statement goes beyond what you have thought as xenophobic, and instead my approach is one of worry as this now goes on our statute books on the basis of personal ambition and greed, and yet again shows how an elite can ride roughshod over the majority of British voters. I also must say that I care little what leavers or remainers think, a decision was made and that I am afraid is that. My thoughts on recent events is to do with the manipulation of our constitution for reasons that are not necessarily in the interests of British people but are purely based in this instance on a certain rich elite wishes. For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at.. http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 Last edited by gilarion on 4th Nov 2016 3:37pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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4th Nov 2016 3:07pm |
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| Tiger Member Since: 06 Jul 2012 Location: Wales Posts: 2265 
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Oh the irony of The Sun bemoaning a 'foreigner' melding in British matters
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4th Nov 2016 3:34pm |
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| gilarion Member Since: 05 Dec 2013 Location: Wales Posts: 5132
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Mr Murdoch does not think of himself as a foreigner, he sees himself as omnipotent and perhaps to a lesser degree as a babe magnet. For those who like Welsh Mountains and narrow boats have a look at my videos and photos at..
http://www.youtube.com/user/conwy1 |
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4th Nov 2016 3:41pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5108 
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There are some serious and fundamental things wrong with our entire parliamentary system, which brings us to where we are today, no this isnt about the Lords - but actually about things like:
Voting Representation - proportional reprsentation is the way to go Localism - we are the most national run country of most of the world apparently! Politicians Process etc etc If only people realised that if they actually voted regularily, they would influence the candidates more and thus outcomes of a term in office...what people forget is only the core group tend to vote (low turn out) therefore the majority looses The EU Referendum, Remain and Leave, both sides were poor, the question was poor, the options poor, the plan - poor. Not everyone who voted remain voted for the same thing, but a significantly more remain people had a common understanding of it. Where as leave voters all voted for different definitions of leave - which has been backed up by current surveys approaches and the mess we are now in. Ignoring those that have now changed their mind - i think if you reran the vote with a question that wasnt yes/no with facts and policy behind it using a yes stay, no leave X or no leave Y we wouldnt be leaving OR would be leaving with a proper majority - not this thin majority there is now...which is why nothing is going smoothly It frustrates me when people say project fear...i thought this was very much the leave camp - but leave people say its the remain camp. Eitherway, we havent left yet but many of the things listed under remain "project fear" are actually happening before we leave...lets hope it doesnt get worse. I could really go on at length about it but wont for now. Regarding the high court action - this was absolutely democracy in action and right for ANYONE in the UK to bring (unlike the referrendum that excluded people), all its done is said that parliment has to actually view and vote whas going on, like all the laws that impact us - which is democracy in action. What is interesting is will the politicians vote how their consitutents voted (eg around here we voted to remain, as did other areas) 48% of people voted the same, so this does need to be reflected somehow, equally this needs to be reflected in what locals voted for - to translate into our priorities and position. Unfortunately politicians often default to the loudest voice, not whats best, whats right or their personal convictions...but again, we arent afforded the right ourselves to vote on a policy position of or politicians over brexit and the government we now have, so its hardly democratic Understanding of democracy - just because you win, doesnt mean you have the right to impose your view lock stock without any challenge, opposition brings unity and balance in the end solution...if the deal reflects the direction with compromise and compassion of ALL Sides that the majority can get behind the majority isnt the 52% ists the middle proportion of the leave/remain camp in this case. i do find it funny that all the people who make some big deal about democracy do so when they demonstrate A) dont understand what it is B) Dont usually vote C) Dont understand that parliament is democracy D) wanted to give parliament more power, supposedly, but they struggle with the power they have. Personally, i dont vote to then micromanage my politician (who i didnt vote for). Nor do i choose my energy supplier to decide what power station they must supply me from. We need politicians to earn the £70K work out not whats popular, but whats right, within the context of what they have been set to do. If we werent such a small narrow minded country, we would have used the vote to go back to the EU stronger in our resolve to get more for us...not leaving, but not staying. Instead we are almost cutting off our nose to spite our faces. All that before i get into the UK and European countries - because in short - we arent as great as we think we are Mike |
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4th Nov 2016 4:06pm |
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| Hairysteve Member Since: 15 Jun 2015 Location: Surrey Posts: 692 
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4th Nov 2016 5:25pm |
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| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1856  
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Well said mse.
It's no secret I voted remain, I fully agree that the eu is too powerful, too controlling, and too big, we may and only may have been able to do something about it as part of the club, from the outside we can do nothing. My biggest fear is without our contributions and steadying hand the titanic that is the eurozone will split apart and sink, whilst the down draft from its sinking will pull the little lifeboat that is the British Isles down with it. Anyway off to see the Mr Maire at the Mairie to find out why he thinks it's acceptable to raise the soil level by 10" against the side of my house - bloody French! Keith |
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4th Nov 2016 6:00pm |
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| davew Member Since: 02 Jan 2012 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 888  
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The problem with our political system stems from one simple thing, political parties. Instead of having MPs that are accountable to the people that voted them in, either reflecting the electorate's views or consulting with them, we have a system where most MPs are elected based on the political party they represent rather than their individual beliefs. They then head off to parliament where they are either in government or opposition and they vote pretty much according to the wishes of the party rather than the people they represent. The irony being that when they throw their teddy due to not getting their way over something they "resign" from the party and claim that they are doing so for the electorate... who nearly always completely fail to vote them back in as an independent if they're daft enough to try and stand.
PR would make that system even worse, allowing the political parties the right to choose who represents you and effectively making it impossible for an independent to be elected. PR is, in fact, an admission that the party system is inevitable and immovable. It also completely disconnects the electorate from the MPs as MPs will no longer represent a constituency. In an ideal world our MPs would be elected by us based on the candidate not the party, he/she would go to parliament and every vote would be taken entirely with the views of those that elected them in mind, in short they would actually represent the people who voted for them. Government would be formed by consensus with the best candidate for each position elected by the whole house on a fixed term. Anyone who allied him/herself to any "political" grouping of found colluding with others to effect a vote would be immediately removed from their position. Some might say that that would leave parliament powerless to make new laws unless everyone agreed... I wouldn't see that as a bad thing though as most of the decisions they make now are pretty rubbish anyway ! Obviously this will never happen because we are all human beings and flawed in so many ways but one can dream...
That is exactly the positive outlook and respect for your country that persuaded so many people to vote to leave the EU. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/ |
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4th Nov 2016 6:06pm |
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| mse Member Since: 06 Apr 2008 Location: UK Posts: 5108
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I agree with that. Regarding the uk...my family is a long term, full English family, long long history, before an ancestor peed all the money away, hundreds of years ago, we are/were as English/British as a family could be. However, I've long thought and further learnt that the biggest problem with the uk, is that there are many many people who think that, because we have great in the name we are great, we aren't. We have a society bred with no common sense, people who can't respect each other, where we aren't allowed to act like adults, enjoy freedoms, be free, where people think they can bully and create laws to stop people living their one life...the list goes on and on. I could list things here that directly apply to us, to other examples that have nothing to do with the types of things covered by this forum. We think our country is so great, but wherever you turn it isn't, whether it's the attitudes of people to others, our roads are rubbish, towns, villages and cities poor and closing down, we have no real base in either good infrastructure or manufacturing or many other things. Whether it's rubbish broadband, poor mobile coverage or just shocking public services and high taxes - we really don't have many things right. We feel so hard done by, usually by Europe, but it's not Europe, we do it to ourselves...across Europe, every European country I've been to, I've noticed everything is just better...infrastructure, freedoms, options, community, support etc etc - again too much to list. Many parts of Europe really have the right balance towards the individual and family, something we have lost chronically... So I come back to, the sooner we start to drop the Thought that we are a bit of a big deal in the world...the better It's not that I don't want the uk to do well in or out of Europe...but this country isn't great, has more failings than most and just isn't the big deal. Unfortunately leaving Europe won't fix the damage, I fear it will allow more of the bad to come through actually. Mike |
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5th Nov 2016 12:15am |
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| lambert.the.farmer Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: harrogate Posts: 2006 
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There is nothing right with this country and everywhere you look the4e are.faults. Except for the minor issue of the size of our economy putting us at the top table of regional and global powers. We are not as.Great as we were a hundred years ago but we haven't fallen that far.
As for.electoral reform, first past the.post may not be perfect but compared to the other options put forward it is both simple to understand and to administer and is why it has stood the test of time. Set that against the American presidential election system and even someone as erudite and intelligent as Jeremy Paxman has difficulty explaining that in terms that make it sound sensible and fair. As to the proceedings against the government all that has done is demonstrated that if you have enough money and enough of a.bee in your bonnet you can manipulate the government via the judiciary into getting what you want, anyone feeling rich enough to challenge the Nerc act and get our green lanes back? Rhubarb and custard let fly with their secret weapon. |
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5th Nov 2016 5:21am |
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| simon67 Member Since: 18 Jun 2015 Location: west sussex Posts: 569 
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Just to stick up for this country, I think it is still great. The South Downs, Snowdonia, walking along the beach in Winter, full English in a cafe with a mug of tea, Sunday papers in front of a pub fire, I could go on
Politicians are  , but they come and go. People make a country great, and the vast majority in this country are good people, doing the best they can
We are probably not the best country in the World, but we do the best we can. Off to do something else meaningless to the Landy, enjoy the weekend |
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5th Nov 2016 8:40am |
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| Muddybigdog Member Since: 11 Apr 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 1047 
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Personally for me, this legal challenge highlights how ill equipped, poorly informed and ill prepared the U.K. was with the decision to stay/leave the EU. So called leaders of our country from all political divides are showing how clueless they are and simply that they are not managing it well, at all. Why on earth did the 'so called' leaders of the country enter into giving people the opportunity to vote on a subject without knowing what the consequences would be, regardless of leave or stay.
Initially I thought the BREXIT legal challenge was a total farce, but rethinking it can show us that it might take someone from the outer kingdom to say just stop the could be going about matters totally arse upwards. it also says to me actually how great this country really is, to be able to challenge to the political parties, to be able to make politicians sit up and listen to Joe public, it is true freedom of speech and a open society. Regardless if a person was leave or stay, being able to voice/debate such decisions so openly is admired by many in the rest of the world where they don't have that freedom. Goodness knows there are many things not right with this country, but having spent a few years living / working in others countries, I am so glad to get back home and call Britain my home. Jumped ship to reliability - Mitsubishi L200 Puma 90 XS - Sold D3 - 2.7 S x2 (both Sold) Freelander 2 HSE - Sold Freelander 1 - Sold Disco 2 - Sold |
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5th Nov 2016 9:36am |
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