 | Home > Off Topic > All EU Referendum Discussion Here |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 
|
|
|
| need4speed Member Since: 23 Nov 2012 Location: Kilmarnock Posts: 746  |
Cant argue with you there! |
||
26th Jun 2016 6:09pm |
|
| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1733  
|
I know that this petition probably won't achieve diddly, but there are over 16 remain & protest brexiters who are signing it every second - that's one hell of a convoy of campers & old school buses.
3.34 million and counting Peace and Love |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 6:20pm |
|
| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765 
|
Not only that, but in signing e-petitions or moaning on line and asking for a re-vote or annulment, they are by definition saying that only they are ca-able enough to make the right decision. Just because they don't believe it so, doesn't mean leaving cannot ultimately be right and that those who voted for it are as informed and as capable of making such a decision as a remain voter is. Indeed leading on from this, those who state that to remain was the sensible, safe and best bet for Britain can only rightly say so in the here and now. They, much like leave supporters, do not have a crystal ball to say what the unelected, unaccountable minority who make the decisions for us in the EU will force upon the population over the next generation or two. Simply accepting that it will be better for Britain is as much a blind leap of faith as staying. Maybe not in the near future, but long term.... Put it this way, if Harold Wilson and chums, (let alone the 75% of the British population who voted to join the EC), were told that within two generations the EU would have the controls it does, that we would cede nearly all law making decisions to an unaccountable few, that it would number 28 countries and counting, that many were small, inefficient, poor economies worth far, far less than parity and we would shore up, that immigration would be free and uncontrolled within borders, etc etc, I wonder if we would have joined in the first place? Would we as a nation have given up such levels of self control for some trade agreements? I doubt it. But we're now used to it, especially the young who have been 'European' since birth, so it's easy to say staying in is the safe bet. Further, what trade benefits we derived from joining (and staying) have to be weighed against those of leaving. The liberal press constantly harp on about us leaving our 'largest trading partner'. True, but only because that same trading partner prevents us from having individual trade agreements with the worlds largest market places and is so inefficient, because of the 28 differences of opinion, not to mention vastly differing strengths of economies, that they cannot even come to agreement on the members' behalf. And it is worth remembering that the EU may be the largest trading single market, another regularly bandied phrase, but in terms of the largest trading market by head of population, it's a third that of China, half that of India, roughly the same as the US and only slightly larger than Brazil, none of whom the EU has a trade agreement with, let alone a British biased trade agreement. So, baring in mind 70% of our trade is outside the EU, yes 70%, why do remain think it is a safer bet to remain inward looking rather than towards the international economic new world order that total 3bn people, (six times that of the EU) and includes half of the worlds top ten economies (US, China, Japan, Brazil, India and Canada) who's total economic wealth is over 40 trillion dollars, three times that of the EU, and yet doesn't even include the trading partnerships we could have with other partners such as Korea, Taiwan, Australia etc. And all on our own terms. Further, this supposes that all trade with the EU giants stops, which of course it won't. Trade with the U.K. is far, far too important to the likes of France, Germany, Spain and Italy to ignore just because Junker says so. Who will BMW and Audi sell their cars to? Macedonians when they join? And what of the French, where will all their wine go? Italy? Spain? Almost every nation makes their own, and none will pay for the over inflated French stuff. So, why do Remain believe they know it all? Why can we not trade with the real power nations if we are already doing so the to the tune of 70% of our exports? Can they (Remain) say with absolute certainty that within another two generations there will not be even more control ceded to Europe after laws and decisions taken by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats? Why is their any reason to believe that the EU will not only want to trade on fair terms with the EU, but for the sake of their economies (and the sake of the Euro) will HAVE to? EDIT*** And can any Remain supporters look a Leave supporter in the eye and say without a shadow of doubt that either the current unaccountable system of unelected law makers is healthy or in the interests of Britian and if not, that there is ANY reasonable possibility of it changing within the next few years, if at all? In any other regard, 28 unelected men or women making decisions, creating laws and deciding the future of a large population, in supremacy to any elected body or government, would be called Communism. But apparently within the confines of the EU it's not only acceptable it's 'better for our country'. Really? No doubt the arguments will include that the EU brought and retains political peace and unity. That the Americans wanted us to stay in. That the politicians, who have greater insight, said it must be so. That business leaders all believed leaving would be a bad thing. My answer is that all those views are self serving and not in the interests of the United Kingdom. Let's be realistic, no politician wants turmoil and a dip in the economy, it's the easiest way out of a job, as Cameron (and likely Corbyn) has found out. Most FTSE business leaders have direct ties, if not actual offices in the EU, so maintaining the status quo is the path of least resistance, fiscally and practically. As far as the US is concerned, they wanted 'eyes and ears' on the general mistrustful (of them) bunch of left wing nations. The U.K. Remaining in was nothing more than a cloaked security request to ensure their special partner passes on the latest tittle tattle so that they can keep n eye on the dodgy Frogs and dangerous Krauts. And as far as peace was concerned, the European giants were on their knees after WWII and the union was manipulated by the yanks themselves. Further 'peace' between us and the former communist bloc was also brought about by the US. Even The Troubles was sorted about by America, not our local cousins. The only time the EU has been directly involved from the outset was during the Balkans and look at the pigs ear they made of that. So all in all, Remain will talk about listening to those who know, but can there answers be anything other than self serving? ***EDIT And why do remain believe that we, a great nation of intelligent, bright motivated individuals, with some of the world's great companies, cannot make a damned good fist of things as the worlds fifth largest economy with wonderful cultural ties with the emerging markets, on our own. There may be unsettled times ahead, but why do the ne'er sayers not accept the democratic outcome and rather than immediately starting fighting and moaning no b**ching, instead get behind the country and make it happen? Come on, the time is now to get behind the UK and make it work whatever your viewpoint last Thurs. get grumpy, act bitter and say it will fail and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy. But show some Bulldog spirit and let's prove the doubters in the EU wrong. 
FURTHER EDIT: Please note, this is all said as a balance to Remain's reaction to the vote of the majority, like it or not. I am not going to say whether I voted Leve, Remain or indeed abstained, but I cannot stand the vitriol and hyperbole that has come in the liberal press and from the 'educated' classes (from which as a public school educated adult I derive) who both seem to assume they know what is right for our country. Arrogant beyond belief. As a former politics student (of the EU in fact) I felt it right to do some balance and perspective and look at the long term rather than just what the EU actually means to us today. Monsieur Le Grenadier I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey Last edited by Grenadier on 26th Jun 2016 7:16pm. Edited 3 times in total |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 6:21pm |
|
| Freypal Member Since: 23 Sep 2013 Location: Shropshire Posts: 271  
|
Grenadier - pretty much sums up my reason for voting to leave. There is a world outside the EU and the possibilities there are huge. For me personally the EU has grown far beyond what the British public signed up to.
|
||
|
26th Jun 2016 6:27pm |
|
| need4speed Member Since: 23 Nov 2012 Location: Kilmarnock Posts: 746 |
A very good point, constructively put grenadier. Unlike a lot of others in this thread.....
|
||
|
26th Jun 2016 6:32pm |
|
| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1733
|
M Le G
I don't disagree with much of your text, couple of things though from your sign in you're an expat living and working in the EU taking advantage of the free trade that exists? I am afraid of the potential black hole that we may well have started. UK withdraws the second biggest contribution to the EU budget, we pay a bit back for a trade agreement, make our own laws - happy days and I'm in agreement so far. Greece then decides to honour its referendum sticks two fingers up to the EU and starts printing Drachma, closely followed by Portugal. Far right in Austria and Netherlands then force a vote and win waving bye bye EU. EU in free fall, massive recession. Meanwhile across the pond Trumpton is in full swing, massive country, huge natural resources, buy American and close the borders! Then there's China already on a slide towards  creek and they've sold all the paddles
Meanwhile we're adrift in an over populated little country that cannot feed itself, being supplied with electricity from France and new stations being built by the Chinese, gas supplied by the Russians, and trying to feed/clothe and house the share of Syrian refugees we will be forced to take. Any way my pot supplier has turned up in the new apocalypse Defender so I'm off for a smoke Peace and Love |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 6:44pm |
|
| mick Member Since: 08 Feb 2010 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 2109  
|
It's called democracy if folk don't like it they can move to North Korea
|
||
|
26th Jun 2016 6:46pm |
|
| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19750
|
^^^^
|
||
|
26th Jun 2016 7:15pm |
|
| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19750
|
And illegal raves, some of that lot around at 2am last night outside my door in a village.
  |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 7:24pm |
|
| BigRuss Member Since: 15 May 2010 Location: Norfolk Posts: 2785 
|
Ickle
The South Caurcases Pipeline will solve the gas from Russia issue Russell
2011MY 110 XS USW Black |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 7:29pm |
|
| ickle Member Since: 22 Jul 2010 Location: South Vendee Posts: 1733
|
Thanks Russ didn't know about that so I Googled it
At the border between Georgia and Turkey, the pipeline will link into other new pipelines to provide gas into Turkey and the European Union I think we've potentially voted to leave that club? Peace and Love |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 7:36pm |
|
| lambert.the.farmer Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: harrogate Posts: 2006 
|
One point, our free trade agreement with the EU is and never has been anything like free. So why should we not pay to trade but limit it to just trade. Oh that's right we have just voted for that. Rhubarb and custard let fly with their secret weapon.
|
||
|
26th Jun 2016 8:04pm |
|
| BigRuss Member Since: 15 May 2010 Location: Norfolk Posts: 2785
|
It will bring gas to Europe. Not the EU Russell
2011MY 110 XS USW Black |
||
|
26th Jun 2016 8:10pm |
|
| JellyBean Member Since: 02 Mar 2015 Location: Suffolk Posts: 142
|
Democracy is based upon the assumption that the argument from both sides is made within a context of honest, functional debate. On this occasion, it was not not. Immediately after the result, Leave moved to distance themselves from promises in relation to the NHS and immigration. That is manipulation - not democracy.
|
||
|
26th Jun 2016 8:42pm |
|
|
|
| All times are GMT + 1 Hour |
< Previous Topic | Next Topic > |
Posting Rules
|
Site Copyright © 2006-2024 Futuranet Ltd & Martin Lewis
