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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

United Kingdom 
Going off topic, WMcA, thought the petrol was used for sniffing rather then the BBQ.

Yes did the Telegraph track, as well as places like the Simpson desert as a solo vehicle 2 days before they closed the desert for the summer. Barbara curtailed the outback experience down to an 8 month trip Big Cry

Would love to take one of our Defenders back there Thumbs Up

Back on topic. Thefts of Defenders is a major problem in the UK along with bits from them, including spare wheels, bonnets, doors, seats etc.

The biggest problem is our so called justice system. Punishment is normally a slapped wrist and being told not to do it again!


Brendan
Post #389692 18th Jan 2015 10:46am
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Retroanaconda



Member Since: 04 Jan 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2575

Scotland 
charlesteton wrote:
In the UK, bonnet and door theft is quite widespread on Defender's. There was also a spike in bonnet thefts in 2011 when the Puma bonnet bulge came in, lots of idiot thinking its cool to have on pre-2011. Theft of Defender's has reached epidemic proportions, just check out the stats at LandyWatch.


2007 you mean surely?

As for these hinges, they still don't address the problem with how the hinge is retained to the bulkhead. It's still just that thin curve of steel which can be easily forced by yanking on the bonnet with it raised or just putting a crowbar between the bulkhead and bonnet at the point of the hinge.

The only way to make them properly secure would be to attach a new fully captive hinge to the bonnet somehow.
Post #389703 18th Jan 2015 11:19am
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X4SKP



Member Since: 29 Nov 2013
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 2290

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey
Hello dgardel... thanks for posting... but Exclamation

I think form what I can see... Retroanaconda is right.

The design looks to address two issues only but still falls short of a significant improvement (probably).
Optimill is not alone as a number of after market attempts to tackle this have arrived at the same approach and the discussion from this point onwards is quality and finish, important but not the key issue.

1 The new Optimill hinge protects 'itself' by being more difficult to remove from the bonnet
due to the obscured fixings from the outside. presumably once fitted these can be removed intentionally
by the owner, by lifting the bonnet and reversing the process of installation... or am I missing something?

2 The main hinge bolt probably has a security head to it but could still be removed with the right tool.

3 Most importantly it still looks to me that with a raised bonnet and a bit of 'levering' i.e with out removing the main hinge bolt the bonnet can still be removed.

The design of the hinge arrangement from bonnet to bulkhead needs to considered as a whole, this looks to me to be a slightly improved solution for half the problem... very happy to be corrected.

 SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html
Post #389711 18th Jan 2015 11:54am
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
The whole concept of security is 'layers' anything that you fit can be defeated by any thief if he has the correct knowledge and tools.....nothing is undefeatable. These hinges as with any security device can be overcome with the correct method, tooling and technical acumen.

They're certainly better than nothing in my book! A Kryptonite lock through the bonnet is also better than nowt. What do you have currently as bonnet security?

Instead of picking holes why not design something better perhaps, get a prototype made, poll for opinions, tweak the design if need be and make some money in the process? If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #389716 18th Jan 2015 12:08pm
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X4SKP



Member Since: 29 Nov 2013
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 2290

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey
Thanks K9F

Layers...agree

Better than nothing...agree

Picking holes...disagree

The idea of 'scrutiny' is to move the issue on...who knows someone might get it right.

'why not design something better perhaps, get a prototype made and make some money in the process?'

Well as you asked, I am an industrial Designer and have this very issue halfway through my workshop.
On completion I will post a picture of the installation, so that you, and others can see what a thief would
see if they walked round my vehicle.

Very happy at that point for any constructive observations...
which is what I thought I was providing. SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html
Post #389723 18th Jan 2015 12:23pm
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
It will indeed be interesting to see your prototype product. Are these going to be available or just a one off?

As mentioned and agreed the layered approach is best, I have a number of layers above standard each hopefully reaching the two minute guide and a sytem for recovery/disablement of the vehicle remotely. As the title suggests these hinges are 'anti-theft' are yours going to be 'theft proof?'

Look forward to seeing and constructively viewing your own product. Good luck. Thumbs Up

Lifted originally from another forum.....

K9F wrote:
It is clear that there is no single magic solution to security. Each security product just buys you time - and it is time that is the real deterrent to potential thieves, not loud alarms nor flashing lights. Most people simply ignore alarms. The more time your vehicle takes to steal, the greater the chance a potential thief will be caught so the more likely they are to move on to a less protected vehicle.

Curiously, the magic time delay is roughly 2 minutes. A delay of 2 mins will make most thieves move to another vehicle. A delay of 4 mins will not give you twice the protection (a case of diminishing returns). However, two security products which each take more than 2 minutes to defeat does seem to offer double the protection. This is the reason specialists recommend a 'layered' approach. Each product provides one layer of protection and you decide how many layers you need for the risk in your area.
 If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #389734 18th Jan 2015 12:53pm
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X4SKP



Member Since: 29 Nov 2013
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 2290

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey
Hello K9F

Mine are currently viewed as a one off.

'Theft Proof' is a tough ask. Mine will be unusual / if not unique when viewed, therefore aiming to put off an attempt.
If attempted the aim then is to slow down, inconvenience, surprises, etc, together with the requirement for specialised tools / probably even the requirement for a unique tool. the net of this is to hope the Censored gives up.

I agree, for most 'have a go' car thieves multiple aspects, that require the above, can only help.

I have undertaken a Patent Search, so know what is currently filed (in Europe).
I may put in an Application before disclosure, but commercially, my judgement currently, is that there's not much
in it, despite the fact that all in if you have your bonnet stolen it's a 1K fix. SKIP
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html
Post #389753 18th Jan 2015 1:27pm
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dgardel



Member Since: 30 Nov 2008
Location: Veneto (Heart & Head)
Posts: 3586

Italy 
X4SKP wrote:
Hello dgardel...

1 The new Optimill hinge protects 'itself' by being more difficult to remove from the bonnet
due to the obscured fixings from the outside. presumably once fitted these can be removed intentionally
by the owner, by lifting the bonnet and reversing the process of installation... or am I missing something?

2 The main hinge bolt probably has a security head to it but could still be removed with the right tool.
........


yes correct

The hinges pivoting pin is retained by a grain from the bottom side, so you do not have screws from the outside. Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License
Post #389758 18th Jan 2015 1:36pm
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Off Topic Slightly, sorry Daniele..... Bow down

If it's good enough there may be quite a demand for them. From a 'little earner' perspective I had a similar experience with a 'one off' intercooler grill I got made from 316 stainless and the demand 'took off.' Could be viable to perhaps consider 'throwing it out there' if it's a quality product maybe? If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #389761 18th Jan 2015 1:39pm
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dgardel



Member Since: 30 Nov 2008
Location: Veneto (Heart & Head)
Posts: 3586

Italy 
Objectively, all you can steal.

The important thing is to choose solutions "cost effective", that causing loss of time to b@st@rds that take away our things paid by the sweat of our labor.

.......or at least we try........ Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License
Post #389774 18th Jan 2015 1:53pm
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K9F



Member Since: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 9610

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Stornoway Grey
Daniele is Defender theft much of a problem in Italy? If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!

Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!!
Post #389776 18th Jan 2015 1:56pm
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dgardel



Member Since: 30 Nov 2008
Location: Veneto (Heart & Head)
Posts: 3586

Italy 
Bonnets, doors and wheels for resale in eastern Europe.

If they steal the whole car, will be dismantled and sold in pieces...... Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License
Post #389779 18th Jan 2015 2:02pm
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dgardel



Member Since: 30 Nov 2008
Location: Veneto (Heart & Head)
Posts: 3586

Italy 
Insurance for theft and a good tracker mounted DIY (without any presetted/default wiring diagram) are the best solutions Discovery 5 td6 HSE Stornoway Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License
Post #389781 18th Jan 2015 2:06pm
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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

United Kingdom 
X4SKP wrote:


'Theft Proof' is a tough ask. Mine will be unusual / if not unique when viewed, therefore aiming to put off an attempt.
If attempted the aim then is to slow down, inconvenience, surprises, etc, together with the requirement for specialised tools / probably even the requirement for a unique tool. the net of this is to hope the Censored gives up.




'Theft Proof' is an impossible ask! Sad but true.

The basic problem are our courts are a joke, giving out slapped wrists, telling them to be good boys and sending them out again basically to carry on being a scumbag and breeding scumbags. I personally believe that the longer scumbag criminal record is the longer/worst the punishment should be.


Take a layered approach, ensure that some of your layers are overt so hopefully will put scumbags off, and some are covert to hopefully defeat scumbag and/or help in the recovery of your belongings.


Do not let the thieving scumbags and the joke of a justice system grind you down too much.


Brendan
Post #389792 18th Jan 2015 2:54pm
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rovinc



Member Since: 13 Oct 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 2

X4SKP wrote:
Hello K9F

Mine are currently viewed as a one off.

'Theft Proof' is a tough ask. Mine will be unusual / if not unique when viewed, therefore aiming to put off an attempt.
If attempted the aim then is to slow down, inconvenience, surprises, etc, together with the requirement for specialised tools / probably even the requirement for a unique tool. the net of this is to hope the Censored gives up.

I agree, for most 'have a go' car thieves multiple aspects, that require the above, can only help.

I have undertaken a Patent Search, so know what is currently filed (in Europe).
I may put in an Application before disclosure, but commercially, my judgement currently, is that there's not much
in it, despite the fact that all in if you have your bonnet stolen it's a 1K fix.


I would like to see this design as well.
With a bonnet lock and better hinges I am hoping to deter theft when possible!
Post #410674 24th Mar 2015 11:20pm
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