 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > drive train slack after overhaul: The odyssey of Didi |
 
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| pistonfields Member Since: 29 Mar 2022 Location: Zurich Posts: 65  
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Hi all
The vehicle in question: Didi the Defender, a 2011 TD4 110 with 130'000km on the clock. 
We got Didi with 70'000km and the PO had replaced the intermediate output shaft at 60'000km with the standard LR part. Still audible was a clonk comming from the rear axle: new stub axles with welded flanges solved the problem. For now. A-Frame joint looked good, so did the u-joints. After a while the clonk reappeared and I feared for the worst. And indeed 20'000km ago I replaced the intermediate shaft again. The PO or it's mechanic didn't even bother to put the rubber sealing ring thingy over the coupling. No wonder the ouput shaft rotted away again.
I went for Daves upgraded part (MT82 Upgraded Output shaft kit). With that I replaced the clutch for a LOF powerspec clutch. Good descision; the springs of the original clutch rattled a lot. Knowing the weakness of the LT230 (or should I say Land Rover parts in general?) I opted for a full overhaul of the transfer box: new bearings, new input and output shafts, new HD intermediate shaft, new Ashcroft ATB diff, new fork, new bigger oil pan cover thingy, new helicoils in some stripped threads, new  everything. I even replaced the big case as the old one had cracks due to wrongly applied sealant on some threaded blind holes. Preload was perfect, everything was perfect. Oh, yes, new u joints as well. And hell did that make a difference, what a joy to drive! See here for pictures of the full process.
That was 20'000km ago. The joy has gone by now, far far away as it seems 
The clunk is back. 
Eager to sort it out once and for all, I started thinking and looking at all the drive train components. Back in my head I wondered if the issue to the failing output shaft might not be corrosion in the first place but misalignment - something Ashcrofts shaft couldn't possibly fix. Well. It quickly turned out I had more than one problem (who doesn't? Ask your therapist next time). It quickly became clear that the front and rear axle diffs needed love. Especially the front stub axles. Not really news, I anticipated that to be problem at some point in the future.
See this short clip, it shows a mix of both front and rear differential. You can clearly see the axial and lateral play in the planet gears and the worn splines from the stub axles (not directly visible but you can see the oil moving in and out of the splines). I didn't expect the diffs to be in mint condition on a vehicle now on its third output shaft. I'm fine with that. Needs to be done, will be done. ATB here I come!
But the big clunk does not come from the axles, it comes from the transfer case / gearbox area. Let's check Ashcrofts output shaft then.
Big surprise - I didn't expect that - lots of angular play. See this video. Not sure what to think of that. Anyway, I still hear a clunk. Worn splines again?
They look good. Mill scale / whatever surface finish the heat threatment left is gone in the contact areas, but the milling marks are still visible. So no obvious wear on the metal itself / not more than you would expect. Looks good! Same goes for the mating part. And good news: the oiling works as expected. Good work there Dave! Still a clunk. So it can't come from the output shaft. And indeed, when turning the shaft no visible slack between shaft and MT82 coupling. Same for the coupling to the transfer case. Daves part works (apart from the angular play, still unsure what to think about it. The original shaft didn't do that).
When turning the output on the MT82 I have two things happening: first a small slack and a clunk, then around 20° of rotation possible before I turn against the engine. This turning is accompanied by a metal scratching sound. See this video with sound on for the clunk, and this video with sound for the 20° turning action. Here (video with sound) the scraping noise is audible, coming from the clutch. The clutch. Seriously? After 20'000km? A heavy duty one? For perspective: I did 1000km with a 3.5t trailer, some light offroading, but not much. Can't be the clutch, right? I checked again in every gear, with fifth being 1:1 down to first and reverse. With every gear step the force required changes, so does the turning angle. The problem MUST thus be located before the gear change. The first clunk (before the 20°) action however stays the same. This second problem must thus come AFTER the gear change, before the output coupling. Big play before gearchange, small but louder clunk after gearchange. A quick message to Luke from LOF, a reply within minutes and not even half a day later a warranty replacement clutch was on an airplane to Switzerland What a customer service. Seriously, I'm definitely not used to this level. 
I haven't taken down the gearbox yet and not replaced the clutch. Luke told me he had a batch with problems on some of the inner springs in 2021 or so. That could account for the 20° of rotation I experience (and the metal noise). Might be possible I got one of the last ones from that batch. Will confirm that theory as soon as I have a possibilty to work on the car again and take down the gearbox. Let the clutch be the culprit: one of two problems at the gearbox are solved. Thanks Luke! The other clunk on the gearbox... well. What could that be? Anyway, at least one issue might be solved. but... We skipped the transfer box. Complete overhaul 20'000km ago. I still experience slack in it.
See this video (with sound) and this video. Slack that has been told to be normal because Land Rover and heritage and "that's why you buy a Land Rover" and smililar crap. Might be, I don't know what to think of it. Because she's my first. And you're always unsure with your first, how to handle, where to touch, which noise comes from pleasure and which from pain. Right? That's why I'm asking you for help. Here's where men with worn shafts can share. Because we all know how it is. So please tell me the following two things:
The reason I'm asking is simple: I want to fix it once and for all, in one go. Knowing which problems to address and which to leave alone helps me in ordering the right replacement parts and have them shipped to Switzerland before taking everything apart. Makes things easier for me. (see https://imgur.com/a/gAE7mBY for all videos and pictures of my analysis) |
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12th Nov 2023 12:47pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3206  
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I think what you are showing in most of the gearbox and transfer case videos is backlash, and not wear. Backlash is important to have between gears, otherwise as they warm up there will be interference between the teeth.
On the diff video I see one of the spider gears has some wear on the pin. Pumas, especially 110s are known to wear front diffs. Lots on information regarding the issue, but surely an ATB will solve it. It is very common on Defenders to have clunks. Probably many will suggest to try to ignore and live with it. Its not a normal car. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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12th Nov 2023 3:17pm |
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| pistonfields Member Since: 29 Mar 2022 Location: Zurich Posts: 65
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Thank you both for your answers. Highly appreciated ♥
I'm well aware it's not a normal car and totally fine with that backlash, yes, sure, fine with that too. I just need to know where the threshold between backlash and slack is. Mainly because I want to avoid further damage on new and expensive components. Not going to do all the work and put in ATB diffs only to wreck them long term due to not fixed issues up the drive line. |
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12th Nov 2023 7:45pm |
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| LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3613  
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change the diffs to Ashcroft ATB you wont regret it, also on one of you video's the one of the gearbox it looks like the big bolt holding the cup for the intermediate shaft is not fully tight, might be an illusion? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,
I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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12th Nov 2023 8:27pm |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19569
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Worn rear drive shafts or A frame ball joints are big culprits, and rear dampers due to bushes to a lesser extent.
They can trick you into thinking that it’s props, to T box or clutch etc but it’s actually not and creates the backlash and loose movement especially during gear changes. Mind you, a failed UJ bearing can be hard to detect on its own in situ without at least removing one end of the prop shaft to check more articulation in the joint. Usually you have just a little backlash and that’s it, which is normal but it’s when it gets excessive you know when something is up and knocking or rattling is a definite tell take and you can usually identify the source by pulling things about underneath. When the A frame ball joint on mine went, I replaced it with a greaseable version, pleased with it. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧 |
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12th Nov 2023 8:33pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3206
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I also thought the same thing, but on a closer view, I think the rotation of the cup is too small to notice the rotation of the bolt. Do note that on Pg53 of the MT82 workshop manual: MT82 Worshop Manual It gives instructions how to install the cup. What is important is to heat it up and initial bolt torque is very high. This is to ensure that the cup is fully seated. Failure to do that may result in the bolt to loose its torque as the cup seats with use, and may result in gearbox main shaft wear. Ask me how I know (or at least my suspect of what happened to mine)  Last picture on this page 19 of the Output shaft failure, Forum Survey
Nigel, also a forum member made a fantastic video on how to measure gbox to TC misalignmnet. May watch on his your tube channel ). 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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13th Nov 2023 6:47am |
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| pistonfields Member Since: 29 Mar 2022 Location: Zurich Posts: 65
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I checked the high res footage of the cup/bolt turning and there's visible no movement of the bolt. I followed the procedure outlined in the workshop manual and heated it up before putting it on etc; even measured depth and compared it to before disassembly. So I'm confident it's installed correctly and does not move. But it might be sensible to remove the cup once again just in case!
The way Nigel measures runout is maybe the only way possible. I didn't do it when rebuilding the transfer case and that might have been stupid. I'm still not convinced that misalingment is an issue on TD4s as long as not proven otherwise (aka someone measures it like Nigel did and shows consistent errors). Makes not much sense from a production standpoint as you'll be working with jigs or mills with two opposing spindles or turning the part by the machine itself, thus minimising exactly those errors. That's not rocket science anymore and standard practice. Well, so is MIG welding but LR that up too on the front axle... you'll never know I guess.
I did check the u-joins and replace them for good measure. A frame ball joint is good. I feel the play with the car on a lift when turning the wheels by hand, and while driving the clonk clearly originates from the transmission / gearbox area / front, not from the rear (clearly heared the clonk coming from the rear when the stub axles where shot). I think it might be sensible to measure misalignment the way Nigel did when replacing the clutch, and check the cup too. That's the only thing I can do in that area when you all say the visible play in LT230 and MT82 are just regular backlash and nothing out of ordinary. The remaining question is the angular movement of the shaft in its cup. Asked Dave two weeks ago but no reply yet, which is unusual for him in my experience. But I'll just wait |
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13th Nov 2023 8:54am |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3206
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I would also suggest to measure runout on the back side bearing location of the TC input gear. And compare that with the runout on the front bearing location. In case there is angular misalignment between the two, and causing the wear that you notice on the adaptor shaft.
What I do not know is how stiff the adaptor housing is. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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13th Nov 2023 9:24am |
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