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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2664   
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 Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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19th Nov 2012 11:25am |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8578
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Freedom of speech should apply to both normal and site sponsors (be they commercial or non commercial) sponsors!
However it would appear that certain forum users believe that it only should apply to non sponsors on this forum
I will make it perfectly clear that I had absolutely NOTHING to do with the deletion or moderation of any recent threads. Now surely the calm, sensible , polite way of dealing with this subject was to enquire of the Administrator. Or is it a case as someone has pointed out to me is that you want to bitch and moan?
Interesting, how come of Martin's stable of forums, Defender2 has the smallest number of moderators according to another forum user? .
YES I have. I take strong objections to your personal insults especially when indirectly it reflects on the behaviour of my parents! It would appear that you feel entitled to be aggressive and insult other forum user under the 'guise of free speech' NOW a little point of information for you. If you have any objection to a particular post in the top right hand corner of each post there is a red triangle with an exclamation mark in it. Click on that and you can report that post to admin and explain why you object. You even get a space to explain your objects. Then admin will decide on what action to take. Quite simple really. Some interesting comments about UK manufacturing. The basic reason why there has been a major demise of UK manufacturing is the way that consumers want cheaper and cheaper items on the shelves. Now when a far east skilled worker earns a fraction of the UK legal minimum hourly rate for a 12 hour shift, when the companies can ignore all health and safety regulations, environmental considerations  and as for respecting patents etc, passing off etc it is hardly surprising they can undercut UK/European producers.
Now with people interest in the environment and support of the UK economy that Defender 2 forum users will look at the country of origin and back British industry and BUY BRITISH before they consider actual price? Now as a company we try to source good quality premium products to stock. Our preference is for UK companies, followed by Europe, America and then Far East. The emphasis being on quality. Yes we can sometimes cheaper items, sometimes from UK companies but if it is not of the same standard of quality we will stick to the quality one. Please note we put quality before price! Now there are many items we can source a lot cheaper however we are not happy with the quality. One item we sell we could buy for a fraction of the price we currently pay, make a much bigger return in terms of percentages and in terms of actual pound notes and sell cheaper! Now why don't we take the extra money? Simple reason we are NOT HAPPY with the QUALITY. Now if anybody does not like my posts they have a choice, firstly they do not have to read it, secondly if I have broken any forum rules etc there is the little red triangle in top right hand corner and you are free to report me! Now for the £60 'bits of bent metal' including postage. People seemed to find them expensive. However a quick phone call to a main dealer and I got told that one original door bracket was £33! So they are not expensive in Land Rover terms Now of that £60, HMRC takes a bigger percentage then we GROSS. Out of our share we have to pay for transport, currency exchange, postage, packing etc, etc. So not exactly much PROFIT in it for us. Now these 'bent bits of metal' are not exactly just that. Whilst I am not privvy to actual manufacturing details it would go along lines of Laser cut profile, fold it, tumble it, laser etch. The post is not just a bolt but is machined billet of stainless bar, turned down to form a head, 10mm shank and then threaded before welding. Now these are not a mass produced item, so machining costs will be HIGH. These items are NOT made in the Far East so labour costs are high. YES there are cheaper options out there. The cheapest option on getting a wider opening? Just removed the door check strap bracket!. As I have said many times. NEEDS, WANTS, BUDGET Do you need it? NO, then don't buy it! Want it? Can you afford it? NO! Then don't buy it! Want it and can afford it? YES! Buy it from your preferred supplier. Quite simple really. Brendan |
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19th Nov 2012 12:03pm |
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| farmer giles Member Since: 09 Feb 2011 Location: worcestershire Posts: 1299 
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does anyone know where i can buy a pair of second hand wellies in scotland - must be good quality
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19th Nov 2012 1:03pm |
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| bpman Member Since: 21 May 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 8069 
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This is a forum NOT an e-shop (IE A replacement for a substandard website)
and .. maybe the condescending tone of the posts could be changed by a particular sponsor Last edited by bpman on 19th Nov 2012 1:12pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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19th Nov 2012 1:03pm |
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| ken Member Since: 18 Aug 2009 Location: Banging Birds with my bitches !! Posts: 4328
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You bad farmer |
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19th Nov 2012 1:09pm |
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| farmer giles Member Since: 09 Feb 2011 Location: worcestershire Posts: 1299
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19th Nov 2012 1:21pm |
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| ibexman Member Since: 13 Dec 2008 Location: kent Posts: 2877
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.... I must say a particular sponsor of late is in your face almost everyday  |
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19th Nov 2012 1:30pm |
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| jasong4110 Member Since: 19 Oct 2009 Location: Henley On Thames Posts: 268 
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Brendan,
I have no axe to grind with you and have in fact brought some products from you in the past and maybe will do again in the future however feel that your right to defend the products you sell sometimes oversteps the mark, and borders on bullying. Again my post on this matter was not aimed at you but was a general comment on where the forum seemed to be heading of late or at least my perception of things. Whilst not trying to put words into your mouth I would also hazard a guess that this is not meant as aggression but just the passion you hold in the products you sell and your business and take general comments as a personal attack on this. As you say what people want to pay is up to them but again if someone thinks something is expensive then they should not be publicly flogged for this drives people away from the forum. Over the years Entreq pricing has been questioned frequently on here and whilst no one questions the quality they have questioned the price. It has also been stated that this is the price that he chooses to charge, if he made hundreds of a product then he could reduce the price. But as has been stated this is not the business model that he chooses, and instead aims his products at the top end of the after-market product market. Again this is his choice and by all accounts is working well for Entreq in what is a very difficult market. But alas in your reply once again I find you drawing a line between quality and price, a line which Pam even pointed out earlier in this thread is not always the case. Just because something is expensive does not make it value for money as that is often a personal vector decided by a formula of personal need/desire/available funds/disposable income so what represents value to someone may not represent value to others. You talk about "needs wants budget" however don't seem to appreciate that sometimes people need and want something but their budgets don't stretch to the top end of the market and have to make a compromise, with you this seems to be a polarised view and then can turn aggressive. Your statement about far east production prices in this case is also a moot point as Entreq have stated their selves that mass production is not something that they either crave or desire. You then go on to state the List price of a bracket from LR, again what this has to do with things is a little confusing for me, if you were to buy all the parts from LR for a Puma than the cost would be over five times the cost of buying a assembled truck from a showroom!! I could understand the comparison if you were comparing like for like but in this case this is not the case, so again I don't think LR are responsible for setting the market value of products. You also state that you pay HMRC more money than you make on these I presume by this you are referring to VAT? If this is the case I would like to point out that you don't pay VAT you pass on the VAT from a purchased product the customer pays the VAT!! Finally as you asked I have just done some research, I get lots of my bits for the truck made from drawings that I have made at home the quality of this work is great and yes it's made in the UK paying UK prices. Now I know that both you and Entreq have overheads and are running a business so need to make a profit also there is some IPR to consider however I sent a rough drawing off to the engineering company that I use they would cut them from an off cut of another job so I may have to wait until the correct material was on the CNC table but they would charge me £20.00 inc VAT to supply cut and fold the material, that is not including the hand crafted bolt. As I wouldn't copy others designs anyway I will not be going down this route but will be purchasing an alternative solution which I know is going to be on the market from a UK manufacturer within the next couple of weeks and will be priced at 1/6 of the Entreq product, whilst admittedly not as crafted as the Entreq does the job and will be good enough for me. It will be interesting to see if you start to stock these as an alternative, I may even buy a pair from you. Jason. Last edited by jasong4110 on 19th Nov 2012 2:45pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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19th Nov 2012 2:02pm |
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| Go Beyond Member Since: 30 Jan 2012 Location: Headcorn, Kent Posts: 6676
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I was taught an important lesson in my early days as a sponsor on the forum - 'Sometimes, less is more' ....
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19th Nov 2012 2:41pm |
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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2664
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 Oh no - just as I thought we were heading back into harmony Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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19th Nov 2012 2:52pm |
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| ZeDefender Member Since: 15 Sep 2011 Location: Munich Posts: 4731  
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Seems harmonious to me - try spending Christmas round ours 
 Tell someone you love them today because life is short.
But shout it at them in German because life is also terrifying and confusing... |
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19th Nov 2012 3:48pm |
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| tatra805 Member Since: 16 Aug 2011 Location: Dolany Posts: 436  
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WOW, what is going on here?
Ok, nothing special as typical on many fora, it’s just a shame. What I saw happening in the mentioned threads was like going to a soccer match sponsored by Mitsubishi and when parking the defender at the game having a Mitsu sales rep shouting all over the place what an idiot I am driving with that piece of disfuntional british engineering while I could have a pajero. He surely would get something from me, but it won’t my money. The thing I don’t get is that sponsors don’t realize they loose part of their freedom to speech by being a sponsor. Before it gets really dirty, don’t forget who’s going to look bad in the end and who’s going to lose the most. A malcontent user will just walk away in anonymity, you as a business do not have that possibility. Therefore I think it is sometimes wiser to be quiet and only take the advantages of being a sponsor. - you get a direct line between customer and your shop (your sponsor part of the site, PM system of the forum) - you get advertising, the above and banner etc - but most of all you get credit as you are part of a community (i dare say OUR, users, community) And all this without having to write a word or vent an opinion. You pay for it, we all appreciate this, but this does not entitle you to push your business on to our backs. (advertise it, you can) Do you realize people wont take offence if respected? (both valid for users to sponsors as vise versa) As a sponsor pushing a product (no matter if it is better in any aspect, cheaper or more expensive) will provoke critics and reaction. If it is out of the budget then you will be blamed of overpricing or snobbism, if it is low down in the budget the quality cant be right. If it is a neutral offering, it will be nothing more than an alternative (= best case). It is in your benefit finding and respecting this balance. And with a multi-scale of users on this forum it is a rope, which I don’t want to walk. So I would keep my salestalk to myself. Instead sharing makes popular, not advertising. As you can’t share your wealth as a business (against principles, and discounts are not an argument as we all take them as “normal”  ) share what else is valuable to your (potential) customers: the points where you are equal to us. Your trips, your experiences, your emotions. It will make us like you and make us biased towards anything you have on offer, even if german, expensive, low quality or the wrong color.
Can’t be that hard does it? Btw, we expect you sponsors to fight each other with better prices for us as a result. Not for you to start fighting us. 
2 cents from a happy thankful user  |
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19th Nov 2012 5:16pm |
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| RRUK Site Supporter Member Since: 31 Mar 2010 Location: Leicestershire Posts: 2015
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I have no interest in bitching or moaning, I'm just sick of you jumping down people's throats because they think that Entreq products are expensive, and verbally bullying them with what comes across as a very poor attitude. You jumped into my "My Defender" thread because I said Entreq was silly money and lambasted me about it. You've done exactly the same thing here. "Calm and sensible", are you having a laugh The irony is unbelievable.
Totally irrelevant. I have no idea why this site has no other Mods, it would seem it needs it.
I'm the aggressive one?
Thanks for pointing that out, as a Mod I had no idea what this was for. I shall try and use this as often as I feel the need from now on. Cheers.
Crikey, I'd love to be a fly on the wall of your shop if a customer walks in and happens to lament the fact that the Entreq product, although nice, is very expensive. 2016 D4 HSE
1998 110 TUM HS FFR Hard Top XD WOLF 1982 Series 3 SWB Petrol |
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19th Nov 2012 5:41pm |
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| CR Member Since: 28 Jan 2010 Location: Ireland Posts: 947  
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Just my 2p worth, relax guys you are fighting the wrong fight
Slightly off topic but I think you are all missing the real enemy in all this and that of course is the company that supply the product in the first place that being Land Rover. (At this point I am going to ignore that aftermarket suppliers are in business to make money and I 100% respect that). If the product was of an acceptable standard from the start there would be no need for aftermarket door struts mud flap hangers and a million other items that are produced to replace what LR think is acceptable. I vist the forum every day and it amazes me that we all complain about the quality of product we purchase but yet as a group we do nothing. This is just my opener on this subject,there will be lots more to come ! watch this space CR |
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19th Nov 2012 7:21pm |
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