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Doublecabdefender



Member Since: 17 Jan 2008
Location: Norwich, Norfolk
Posts: 61

United Kingdom 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Orkney Grey
I totally agree, I would replace the webbing with Dynema also, its extremely strong. Not wanting to put the winch down, but I have had one of these break on me under load. I know they say they are rated at 2/3 tons, but don't believe it mine broke under much less.

I hear what you say about your trailer and it looks great, but that is a hell of an angle to be winching a boat up, in my opinion. I would have the trailer much further into the water, but I understand your reluctance.

Good luck, lovely craft by the the way, she looks great. Thumbs Up

Simon 2012 Defender 110 DCPU XS 2.2 Puma Orkney Grey

''I can resist everything except temptation. ''
Post #144939 14th May 2012 3:46pm
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Zagato
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Member Since: 08 Jan 2011
Location: Billingshurst West Sussex
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United Kingdom 
Thanks for the comments, Shocked As you say the winch is rated to cope with 2-3 times the necessary pull (it's a biggy!) but have to agree it doesn't look brilliant strength wise Rolling Eyes I'll look into Dyneema also which would be much better and maybe an electric winch will be the way forward eventually. Thumbs Up
Post #144956 14th May 2012 5:34pm
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cobs



Member Since: 12 Jun 2008
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 336

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Cairns Blue
As others have mentioned back the trailer further in - you could probably go another 2-3 feet into the water without it coming anywhere near the hubs - remember it's the bearings you're trying to protect not the tyres! Backing further in would reduce the pull required - making it more of a straight pull onto the bilge keels.

Link to portable winch:

http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/ you need to click on 'Portable winch in a box'
Post #144963 14th May 2012 6:03pm
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ay4alex



Member Since: 18 Feb 2009
Location: Midlands
Posts: 327

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS DCPU Java Black
In full agreement that dynaline is a better option for you considering the load. Come on Zag, get your feet wet! Shocked Shocked

Click image to enlarge

IMG_0195 by .:ay4alex:., on Flickr 110 Tdci Double Cab
Post #144969 14th May 2012 6:43pm
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Zagato
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Member Since: 08 Jan 2011
Location: Billingshurst West Sussex
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cobs wrote:


Link to portable winch:

http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/ you need to click on 'Portable winch in a box'


Thats good value Very Happy Thanks Thumbs Up

The trailer is built bespoke to the boat and is very clever not having to wet the wheels and need of replacing bearings, messing about with rusting brakes, linkages etc. Been their done that with first two boats Sad It also straightens the boat as you pull it up between the bottom feeder wheels so you don't have to fart about pushing it around if you have a cross wind. The angle of pull is fine also, (it all pivots down flat of course before the whole weight of the boat is on it!) the boat weighs about 2200 LBs with engine, rigging, stores etc on board and is pulled up on hard rollers, the winch copes OK but if anything let go I would be toast but I have a solution now which won't involve a winch blanket which I think wouldn't be very effective.

Alex that's the way to do it Laughing Thumbs Up

You see people get in a right mess launching and recovering boats off Itchenor slip (not where I put mine in!), I've even seen the emergency services on a training exercise make a real hash of it at Itchenor. It's one of those tricky places where the slope can be slight at the wrong time so people drown their cars and trailers trying to get the boat on Whistle Amuses the ever present crowd anyway Laughing


Last edited by Zagato on 14th May 2012 7:25pm. Edited 4 times in total
Post #144978 14th May 2012 7:16pm
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Orange



Member Since: 18 Apr 2012
Location: Sittingbourne, Kent
Posts: 3

England 2000 Defender 110 Td5 CSW Epsom Green
The way I see it, you could bin the wrist-breaker winch with the following easy steps...

Step 1 - Tow bar on the front of the truck.
Step 2 - synthetic winch rope on the front winch of the truck.
Step 3 - U-shaped stainless hawse arrangement on the top of the post that the winch is mounted to. This would direct the rope to the correct height and angle for the trailer.
Step 4 - winch boat onto trailer from the comfort of the drivers seat...

??? Maybe ???
Post #144979 14th May 2012 7:16pm
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BigMike



Member Since: 13 Jul 2010
Location: Lancashire
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Assuming the strap is rated correctly (and you say it is zag), then I can't see any reason at all to replace it. Obviously the more gradient there is on the pull equals more load on the strap so if you can get the winch at at lower angle there will be less load on the strap and winch. Also you're not lifting the whole weight of the boat, some is supported by water, and the last bit is pulling not lifting, so no need to worry or spend money unneccessarily really.
Post #145045 15th May 2012 8:15am
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Zagato
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Member Since: 08 Jan 2011
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Thumbs Up Yes the winch and strap is well oversize as I needed it to be rated to pull the boat AND trailer up my drive around a corner by using a ground anchor. I am now storing it near Chichester Harbour to save all that hassle...
Post #145048 15th May 2012 8:21am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
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United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
I thought I'd posted this elsewhere, but can't find it, so apologies if this is effectively a double post on the OP's topic of winch blankets and the commercially available types that look like this:


Click image to enlarge


I was struck by what the various Fire Brigades use as a winch blanket and how it differs quite dramatically from the norm in the off road world:


Click image to enlarge


Click image to enlarge


Click image to enlarge
Post #803674 26th Nov 2019 5:33pm
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sako243



Member Since: 08 Jul 2014
Location: Wales
Posts: 1184

Wales 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Alpine White
Before you go spending any money it's worth taking a step back and (dare I say it) assessing the situation.

The way I see it there are three major points / categories of failure:
a) The webbing breaks
b) The winch mount / end breaks
c) The boat end breaks

If we look at a) then webbing in my experience tends to, as previous posters have mentioned, tend to go strand by strand (albeit sometimes quite quickly). If you look at my dinky little 1" straps that are TUV approved they still have a breaking strain of in excess of 5 tonnes. So you can reduce the chance of this failure by regularly checking the whole length of webbing over and ensuring it doesn't rub against anything. If we assume that the webbing is slightly elastic (can't tell from the picture) then if it snaps it will want to contract and therefore snap back towards the vehicle. However the webbing is relatively light and therefore the amount of energy it can impart is not huge (compared to point c below). So although it is a risk the chances of it doing damage are lower than other possibilities because webbing does not tend to be that elastic, it should have a substantial safety margin built in and by doing your checks above you've got confidence it's not severely weakened where it will suddenly snap.

b) As this is a hand winch I would have thought that you'd notice you're putting a lot of effort in as you're winching it on and any failure is going to have some warning. Also given the loading on the winch then any failure of the winch mounting is going to cause the winch to be pulled towards the boat. Any sudden failure is likely down to poor maintenance on it (rusted bolts etc)., as I'd expect it to have had a significant safety factor designed in. You can also ensure that you are stood uphill / in front of the trailer (between it and the vehicle) when winching so that if something does go, yes you might need a change of underwear but shouldn't cause any significant harm to yourself. The mass of the winch and so on should also slow down any "projectile" nature of it.

c) This is the one I'd be more concerned about and where the winch blanket comes into play. Lets assume that any breakage at this point will leave either the clevis on the strap (or worse the clevis and part of the boat) attached to it. As this is under strain then when that end lets go there is the potential for that end to come flying back towards the vehicle and winch person. So where I'd be placing a blanket / heavy jacket (bags clipped around it are also good) is around the heavy bits at that end of the webbing. Assuming the webbing is slightly elastic then as it's under load it storing up the potential energy and when the boat (lets say hull) gives way then the webbing will want to contract and cause the metal hook / clevis to come hurtling back doing lots of damage. By putting some extra mass around the clevis then you are absorbing some of that energy at the far end and hopefully preventing it from coming back to hit you.

An interesting way that would also help mitigate this (which I've not seen done before, probably because of it's inconvenience and over-the-top in most situations) would be to attach a secondary line between the boat and the clevis / anchor point. If the primary point fails then the secondary rope (could in this situation be some appropriately rated climbing accessory cord / paracord for example) catches the heavy clevis and prevents it from hurtling back. This is performing the same function as the winch blanket but is less convenient.

So after that long post my summary would be attach the blanket down near the boat.

A secondary point is your suggestion of holding the line down towards the trailer - if you are distorting the straight line pull of the winch then you're introducing more problems because you're now adding something to rub against the strapping and changing the angle of the winch which might cause more issues (although based off that design I can't see it affecting it much).

One possibility that you may not have considered - I just noticed the second rope. Is the anchor point / rope strong enough to hold the boat? I assume (and I might be wrong here) that that is used to tie off the front of the boat to help hold it on the trailer. If that's the case then you could winch in a bit, tie off the boat, winch in a bit, tie off the boat. Although if one fails then it could potentially shock load the other anchor point. But something to consider maybe.

Wow - that was longer than I anticipated it. Ed
82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6
95 Defender 110 300Tdi
Post #803726 26th Nov 2019 9:35pm
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sako243



Member Since: 08 Jul 2014
Location: Wales
Posts: 1184

Wales 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Alpine White
Supacat wrote:
I thought I'd posted this elsewhere, but can't find it, so apologies if this is effectively a double post on the OP's topic of winch blankets and the commercially available types that look like this:


Of the two the firemans looks a better solution to me personally but more bulky but I guess in the fire-fighting scenario those blankets have multiple purposes so a better solution overall.

The placement of the winch blanket on the 4x4 just looks wrong to me - but actually thinking about it - I'm not sure what's more likely to fail - the anchor end or the winch end. Put one at both ends would be the safest... Which brings me to question my previous post Embarassed Ed
82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6
95 Defender 110 300Tdi
Post #803728 26th Nov 2019 9:39pm
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m3vert



Member Since: 15 Mar 2018
Location: Central Scotland
Posts: 162

Scotland 2011 Defender 110 2.5 TD PU Stornoway Grey
The firefighters are using a salvage sheet which is readily available on every front line appliance in the UK. Nice and heavy and should do the job in a failure of a Tirfor or winch. As you say same principle as a winch blanket. Thumbs Up
Post #803761 27th Nov 2019 7:25am
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green
sako243 wrote:

An interesting way that would also help mitigate this (which I've not seen done before, probably because of it's inconvenience and over-the-top in most situations) would be to attach a secondary line between the boat and the clevis / anchor point. If the primary point fails then the secondary rope (could in this situation be some appropriately rated climbing accessory cord / paracord for example) catches the heavy clevis and prevents it from hurtling back. This is performing the same function as the winch blanket but is less convenient.


Something like this?






Click image to enlarge



Click image to enlarge
Post #803762 27th Nov 2019 7:35am
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sako243



Member Since: 08 Jul 2014
Location: Wales
Posts: 1184

Wales 1994 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Alpine White
Thumbs Up Ed
82 Hotspur Sandringham 6x6
95 Defender 110 300Tdi
Post #803766 27th Nov 2019 8:06am
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lohr500



Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 1277

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black
Is the winch one of those two speed Maypole jobbies, with a freewheel brake lever?
We have had several failures with that design of winch at our sailing club, when people have tried to recover our larger 80HP RIBs and committee boats without having the trailers deep enough in the water.
I've replaced the webbing strapping twice in the past two years due to them snapping and also replaced a whole winch assembly because the winding handle rounded off the flats where it connected to the winch body Sad
Our trailers aren't tilting bed though, so there is a lot of force on the recovery system if people try to winch onto the trailers when the rear of the trailers aren't low enough in the water.

Putting a stronger strap on the same set up will probably just move the point of failure to something else.

I share sako's concern over the strain on the bow fitting.
Has the trailer been built with waterproof bearings or could you convert them?
It would be much kinder to the whole system if you could submerge the trailer deeper into the water and allow the Drascombe's buoyancy to assist with the retrieval. Ripping out the front bow eyelet would be a sad, costly and potentially dangerous outcome.

Converting the bearings and then giving the drums a quick hosing down with fresh water after launch/retrieval would be my favoured solution.

I was at Windermere in the summer and I noticed some new twin axle trailers at the marina in Bowness with a neat solution for washing down the hubs. They had what looked to be flexible irrigation hose pipe routed from a central Hozelock bayonet fitting mounted up at the front and running to each hub back plate. I bet it would be quite easy to fit something like this to an existing trailer.

Nice Dascombe by the way Thumbs Up . We had a McNulty built Lugger for 8 or 9 years when the children were growing up.
Post #803769 27th Nov 2019 8:46am
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