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blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17327

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

22900013A wrote:
noworries4x4 wrote:
Ive been done for doing 60 on the A10 south of Kings Lynn national speed limit area i was told 90 csw taxed as lgv 50mph limit on single carrageway 90 County windows and seats taxed as plg 60 mph copper on a bike was an arse no point in arguing as i could tell he was up for making my life a missery if i kicked off.

Points gone now back to a clean licence (although i am worried about a camera van on the A127 late the other night)

If it was taxed as LGV then I'm afraid they were right...the lower limits apply.

NO, NO, NO!

No, they were wrong, the lower limits DO NOT APPLY TO DUAL PURPOSE VEHICLES.

The legislation which sets these speed limits is the Road Traffic Regulation Act (1984). It uses exactly the same definition of Dual Purpose Vehicle as the C&U Regulations, and it imposes speed limits as follows:-

* Cars, dual purpose vehicles (which includes ALL LR vehicles with 4wd provided that they are less than 2040kg unladen irrespective of body style and taxation class), and car-derived vans with a GVW less than 2 tonnes are subject to "normal" national speed limits.

* Goods vehicles of all kinds and car-derived vans with a GVW exceeding 2 tonnes are subject to reduced speed limits as defined in Schedule 6 to the RTRA(1984).

Schedule 6 of RTRA(1984) specifies exactly what the reduced limits are for the various types and weights of goods vehicle.

If you still doubt me, google for an online copy of the Act and read it yourself.

Noworries, what you should probably have done was contest the speeding ticket in court; no point arguing at the roadside with an ignorant jobsworth, but the case would have been won in court without doubt since no offence had been committed and there is in fact no case to answer.

4th Oct 2011 10:39pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5034

2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Scotia Grey

Sorry, it's really clear that it does apply, LR have confirmed it as have the statutory bodies.

defenders are not dual purpose and it's the tax class link that's important so low tax = lower speed limits!

As stated an LR is not a car derived van, maybe a van derived car! Mike

4th Oct 2011 10:53pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 17327

mse wrote:
Sorry, it's really clear that it does apply, LR have confirmed it as have the statutory bodies.

defenders are not dual purpose and it's the tax class link that's important so low tax = lower speed limits!

As stated an LR is not a car derived van, maybe a van derived car!

I give up !

I have stated the facts several times in this and other threads; I have pointed you to the relevent legislation which is clear and unambiguous. I can do no more.

Speed limits are set according to the vehicle type; vehicle type is defined by the Construction & Use Regulations (1986) (as amended). The speed limits applicable to the vehicle types are proscribed in the Road Traffic Regulation Act (1984).

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION BETWEEN TAXATION CLASS AND SPEED LIMITS IN THE UK.

The fact that DVLA, Landrover, Joe Bloggs, or me, for that matter has expressed an opinion does not make it correct. If you took the time to read the C&U Regs and the RTRA you would find out the real situation for yourself and then be in a position to debate based on primary references rather than hearsay.

I really cannot see how you can possibly assert that Defenders under 2040kg unladen are not Dual Purpose Vehicles, given the definition which Pom kindly posted on p5 of this thread (and which is stated thus in both C&U(1986) (as amended) and RTRA(1984)).

Incidentally, who are the "statutory bodies" you mention? DVLA is not a statutory body. Only the courts can make definitive rulings on the law.

The time has come to agree to disagree. You pay your speeding fines, I will contest mine and win.

I'm out of this one from now on.

4th Oct 2011 11:45pm

pom

Member Since: 01 Jun 2010
Location: Worcester
Posts: 1343

mse wrote:
Sorry, it's really clear that it does apply, LR have confirmed it as have the statutory bodies.

defenders are not dual purpose and it's the tax class link that's important so low tax = lower speed limits!

As stated an LR is not a car derived van, maybe a van derived car!

wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sorry bud.

Pom

5th Oct 2011 11:32am

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5034

pom wrote:
mse wrote:
Sorry, it's really clear that it does apply, LR have confirmed it as have the statutory bodies.

defenders are not dual purpose and it's the tax class link that's important so low tax = lower speed limits!

As stated an LR is not a car derived van, maybe a van derived car!

wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sorry bud.

Pom

The problem you guys have here is both Land Rover, DVLA and the Police are enforcing something different - fact, living proof is showing your wrong... admittedly i have lost track on all the stuff (I stopped following it when i stopped looking for a new defender), so technicalities of this post might be wrong...but what i will say is the tax isn't the driver its the tax class of the vehicle that then dictates the lower speed - that is fact. As that is the definition of what the vehicle is.

Its handy to say the lower tax vehicles have a lower speed limit as that is broadly accurate - but much more complicated to define classifications etc

Commercial defenders are limited - just as vans are...that is fact. Mike

5th Oct 2011 4:33pm

frapp

Member Since: 11 Jun 2011
Location: Norff Zummerzet
Posts: 8

22900013A wrote:
leeds wrote:
pom wrote:
so does this mean every builder who tows a mini digger is going to have to shell out 8 grand ?

I just cant see that happening no way.

Pom

I do not think they come under the scope of an Operators licence but come under towing laws.

Brendan

They don't unless they are selling the digger. (I think)
It will apply to me, that much is clear, as I am paid to move cars. It would also apply to a farmer taking cattle to be sold, crops to be sold etc. It would not apply if he used, for example, a Landrover and trailer to carry his tools.

I shall be in touch with NFU next week and see what they say about it.

Jeeks, this one is a grey area discussion init.

My tuppence worth, I have JCBs that get transported by trailers, 1.5 ton & 2.7 ton. The 1.5 was on the trailer being towed by my 90 when I got tugged by Plod on the M5. Plod wanted to see my Tacho', which is not fitted, I told Plod I did not need one, so after a few minutes of "Yes you do" & "No I dont" and just before the ticket was written, I informed Plod it is not required as the contents of the trailer is the tools of my trade. Fair play to Plod, he took my mobile number to phone me later on, once he had checked. He did phone me later, to apologise for stopping me, and yes I was right.

Had I been delivering the digger for someone else to operate, then I would need a Tacho.

It just goes to prove, they dont know everything and had I not got the info from the Ifor Williams Trailer website beforehand, I would have been the proud owner of some points and relieved of some serious amount of dosh.

The 2.7 machine is still trailerable but with no bucket on, these get transported in the back of the 7.5 ton MAN Tipper which I have had to get an O licence for. So all legal, but Kin expensive.

Frapp

5th Oct 2011 5:48pm

noworries4x4

Member Since: 24 Dec 2010
Location: Newton Abbot Devon
Posts: 1195

Oh yes I have to be very very careful what goes on my trailer at work, the transport wheels for moving cranes on and off the low loaders are "tools of my job" a generator as long as I am going to use it and it is not going out on hire is ok, but crane rigging mats and lumps of crane jib or test weights are not allowed as it can be proved they are being hired out. Mine field anyone? I have been pulled by vosa many times and you really have to be able to prove what you are doing and where you are going to from ect ect.
I have read the c&u regs as Blackwoolf sugested reading that higher speed limits defiantly apply, but I can also see the argument that as it has been specifically taxed as lgv so therefore the lower speed limits also apply.
I think that as with the Health and safety at work act, when something goes wrong in industry or at any place of work, you never get prosecuted for breaking regulation b sub section 4 etc etc they will always hit you at court with the Health and Safety at work act, its where all the regulations come from.
The c and u regs even over rule modern eu regs, even though there have been years and years of harmonisation across the eu. I was prosecuted and went to court with clever transport lawyers ect for not having notified an abnormal load or marking it correctly as per c and u regs, but I was using a brand new eu and tuv certified crane carrier behind a standard tractor unit. Weights were ok just the rear projection from the rear lights. eu regs fine c and u regs nickked, if we had used a STGO 3 tractor unit we would also had been fine. Even more stupid to get round it all we do now is the rear lights have been modified to pull out on arms to comply with very outdated c and u regs If everything is under control you are not going fast enough.

Every Day 16 MY Discovery 4 Commercial Workshop and Escort Vehicle
Weekends 07MY L322 TDV8 Vogue SE
Series 1 80" 3ltr 6cyl with overdrive
No Worries 4X4

5th Oct 2011 8:43pm

chiefstoker

Member Since: 11 Oct 2010
Location: Weston-super-Mud
Posts: 897

All very interesting stuff.

I have a 90 hard top ( err car-ish derived van) and have always assumed I was limited to 50 on A roads, 60 on dual carriageway - did not know about dual purpose vehicle loophole

I also tow a trailer mainly with my 'tools for my job onboard - therefore dont need a tachograph, however if I deliver motorcycles for a friend with it for his business I suppose I would need a tacho, unless it was classed as free delivery!!!

2005 TD5 90 Hard Top

Beer 'n Sex 'n Chips 'n Gravy

15th Oct 2011 7:16am

leeds

Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8580

Sorry Chief but I think you are wrong. Delivering a motorbike for your friends business is at best a grey area.

The fact that your friend is not charging for delivery is irrelevant, it is for his business hence hire and reward.

Grey area continues with do you get any reward, not paid? A cup of tea at either end of trip or a couple of beers could be construed as reward!

Yes a minefield.

Brendan

15th Oct 2011 8:00am

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Keswick Green

chiefstoker wrote:
All very interesting stuff.

I have a 90 hard top ( err car-ish derived van) and have always assumed I was limited to 50 on A roads, 60 on dual carriageway - did not know about dual purpose vehicle loophole

I also tow a trailer mainly with my 'tools for my job onboard - therefore dont need a tachograph, however if I deliver motorcycles for a friend with it for his business I suppose I would need a tacho, unless it was classed as free delivery!!!

With respect to previous posters, I do not accept that any Landrover is a car-derived van. They are over weight. My understanding, after several questions posed to Landrover via my dealer is that 2011My Defenders are subject to commercial speed limits due to the N1 build classification. It is not to do with the tax class per se, but you do get the benefit of cheaper tax. Earlier models are not subject to lower limits in my understanding. Certainly the TD5s I used to drive for SSE weren't, and they did usually look very closely into vehicle regs for each vehicle type.

I´m also afriad that you do require a tacho for deliverying goods in a trailer if the GTW can exceed 3500KG, even if you do not receive payment in money. It is part of your mates business service, and so comes in the scope of tacho regs. To me, the 5000 pound fine for not having one is not worth it when a tacho costs about 1500 fitted. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

16th Oct 2011 10:50am

wslr

Member Since: 18 Jul 2010
Location: Wellington, Somerset
Posts: 581

So having such 'Clear-as-mud' legislation, this is going to lead to problems. An enforcement agent may interpret the rules one way only to find a court may not. Am I right?

16th Oct 2011 3:24pm

pom

Member Since: 01 Jun 2010
Location: Worcester
Posts: 1343

wslr wrote:
So having such 'Clear-as-mud' legislation, this is going to lead to problems. An enforcement agent may interpret the rules one way only to find a court may not. Am I right?

No its clear.

If you buy a car and the V5 says its a car you can do car speed limits. If you buy a van or car derived van then you drive van speed limits. dual purpose is nothing at all to do with it.

Pom

16th Oct 2011 4:28pm

chiefstoker

Member Since: 11 Oct 2010
Location: Weston-super-Mud
Posts: 897

[quote="22900013A"]

chiefstoker wrote:

I´m also afriad that you do require a tacho for deliverying goods in a trailer if the GTW can exceed 3500KG, even if you do not receive payment in money. It is part of your mates business service, and so comes in the scope of tacho regs. To me, the 5000 pound fine for not having one is not worth it when a tacho costs about 1500 fitted.

£1500 is way over and above the budget to make these occasional deliveries viable, cheaper for him to hire a van than have a tacho fitted just for infrequent trailer usage

Ironically, I have to attend a Tacho course at my workplace on Thursday morning. Most things may not be relevant to Land Rovers, but I'm happy to ask any questions to the tutor if anyone wishes to post any

stoker x 2005 TD5 90 Hard Top

Beer 'n Sex 'n Chips 'n Gravy

16th Oct 2011 6:57pm

pom

Member Since: 01 Jun 2010
Location: Worcester
Posts: 1343

22900013A wrote:
chiefstoker wrote:
All very interesting stuff.

I have a 90 hard top ( err car-ish derived van) and have always assumed I was limited to 50 on A roads, 60 on dual carriageway - did not know about dual purpose vehicle loophole

I also tow a trailer mainly with my 'tools for my job onboard - therefore dont need a tachograph, however if I deliver motorcycles for a friend with it for his business I suppose I would need a tacho, unless it was classed as free delivery!!!

With respect to previous posters, I do not accept that any Landrover is a car-derived van. They are over weight. My understanding, after several questions posed to Landrover via my dealer is that 2011My Defenders are subject to commercial speed limits due to the N1 build classification. It is not to do with the tax class per se, but you do get the benefit of cheaper tax. Earlier models are not subject to lower limits in my understanding. Certainly the TD5s I used to drive for SSE weren't, and they did usually look very closely into vehicle regs for each vehicle type.

I´m also afriad that you do require a tacho for deliverying goods in a trailer if the GTW can exceed 3500KG, even if you do not receive payment in money. It is part of your mates business service, and so comes in the scope of tacho regs. To me, the 5000 pound fine for not having one is not worth it when a tacho costs about 1500 fitted.

Ignore weight its irrelevant. The disco3/4 is 2.7 tons and IS STILL A CAR. Blank some windows and its a CAR DERIVED VAN!!!

Read again 'car derived van' and digest!!!

1. Is the van based on a car ======= YES cus theres millions of the feckers.

2. Is the vehicle designed a pure van with no car option ====== NO!

Can't make it any easier than that!

With regard to the chap that tows stuff, read up on the tacho exemptions and be VERY confident you can argue your case based on them or they will spank you.

Pom

16th Oct 2011 8:28pm

22900013A

Member Since: 23 Dec 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 3149

pom wrote:
22900013A wrote:
chiefstoker wrote:
All very interesting stuff.

I have a 90 hard top ( err car-ish derived van) and have always assumed I was limited to 50 on A roads, 60 on dual carriageway - did not know about dual purpose vehicle loophole

I also tow a trailer mainly with my 'tools for my job onboard - therefore dont need a tachograph, however if I deliver motorcycles for a friend with it for his business I suppose I would need a tacho, unless it was classed as free delivery!!!

With respect to previous posters, I do not accept that any Landrover is a car-derived van. They are over weight. My understanding, after several questions posed to Landrover via my dealer is that 2011My Defenders are subject to commercial speed limits due to the N1 build classification. It is not to do with the tax class per se, but you do get the benefit of cheaper tax. Earlier models are not subject to lower limits in my understanding. Certainly the TD5s I used to drive for SSE weren't, and they did usually look very closely into vehicle regs for each vehicle type.

I´m also afriad that you do require a tacho for deliverying goods in a trailer if the GTW can exceed 3500KG, even if you do not receive payment in money. It is part of your mates business service, and so comes in the scope of tacho regs. To me, the 5000 pound fine for not having one is not worth it when a tacho costs about 1500 fitted.

Ignore weight its irrelevant. The disco3/4 is 2.7 tons and IS STILL A CAR. Blank some windows and its a CAR DERIVED VAN!!!

Read again 'car derived van' and digest!!!

1. Is the van based on a car ======= YES cus theres millions of the feckers.

2. Is the vehicle designed a pure van with no car option ====== NO!

Can't make it any easier than that!

With regard to the chap that tows stuff, read up on the tacho exemptions and be VERY confident you can argue your case based on them or they will spank you.

Pom

But Pom, going back to the link YOU posted, and to blackwolfs post above, it says that a car derived van must have a gross weight less than two tonnes to be exempt from lower speed limits. Its there in black and white, so your discovery commercial is a light commercial type, not a car derived van! Makes no difference to me with the 110, but i wouldn't want to be caught with my pants down by VOSA were I thinking a disco commercial (there is kind of hint there) was an exempt car derived van and using one as such. A normal disco is a car due to the number of seats (being less than 9 is it these days?) meaning it is not a minibus, but as the van version exceeds two tonnes gross I cannot see how it can be a car derived van with regards to speed limits, sorry. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton
1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker
1969 IIA 1-Ton
1966 IIA 88"

18th Oct 2011 7:33pm

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