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Home > Maintenance & Modifications > Headlights (again) - Not LED but how about HID Xenon?
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LandRoverAnorak



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11240

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Orkney Grey
Given that LR themselves fitted LED headlights to some of the run out models and they didn't have washers and self-levelling equipment, I can't imagine it's that much of a problem. Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia
Post #734251 11th Oct 2018 6:00pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16808

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
I suspect that they are fine for the MOT, just not legal on the road!
Post #734253 11th Oct 2018 6:04pm
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BuckBlu110



Member Since: 19 Apr 2014
Location: in the pub
Posts: 709

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 110 BMW M57 3.0 Diesel CSW Buckingham Blue
I hadn’t of thought about the run out models having them, if I had remembered that I could have used that in my defence. He actually said that they weren’t illegal and I wouldn’t get pulled over for it, it’s just that they should fail the mot Confused
I think that he’s just misinterpreted the regs on hids and xenons and has bunged leds in the same category and has just told me that to cover his back if I had a run in with vosa, even though the truck lites are fully legal. My 300 is due in a couple of months and has speaker evo2s fitted and would be interested to see what he says about that.
There’s a LR independent near me that Ive used from time to time for odd jobs that has just started doing mots, so if this becomes more of an issue in the future then I’ll take the cars there.
Thanks for the info chaps.
Post #734259 11th Oct 2018 6:46pm
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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

United Kingdom 
Now a read of this part of the testers manual section 4.1.4


Quote:


A ‘light source’ means any bulb, LED or other means of emitting light.

Repairs to lamps must be assessed for security, colour, light output and durability.


Headlamp emitted colour, position or intensity not in accordance with the requirements
Major defect

Product on the lens or light source which obviously reduces light intensity or changes emitted colour to other than white or yellow
Major Defect

Light source and lamp not compatible
Major Defect





To my reading if the light source has been changed such as a halogen filament bulb replaced by LED that is now a major defect or MOT failure.

Anybody has an alternative explanation of that section?



Brendan
Post #734285 11th Oct 2018 8:26pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16808

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
BuckBlu110 wrote:
... He actually said that they weren’t illegal and I wouldn’t get pulled over for it, it’s just that they should fail the mot Confused
...


That makes no sense. If anything on a vehicle is grounds for an MOT fail, then the vehicle is illegal. So if your LEDs cause an MOT failure then the vehicle is unroadworthy and that makes it illegal to use on the road.

I have no idea if he is mistaken about the implications of aftermarket LEDs or not (though I suspect he is) since it is a popular upgrade and I would have thought we'd have heard before now if such units were genuinely illegal. Vehicle construction regulations are now so complex that I suspect we are (nearly) all guilty nearly all the time of some infringement.
Post #734298 11th Oct 2018 9:30pm
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leeds



Member Since: 28 Dec 2009
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 8578

United Kingdom 
Driving a car without a valid MOT is illegal. Under the new system if a MOT says a defect is dangerous then it is illegal to drive it even if the old MOT has not expired. Now if the fault is major then my understanding is that whilst it may be driven you could be prosecuted for driving a unroadworthy car.


Now if your car passes its MOT conversely it does not make your vehicle road legal. The MOT is a basic safety check that various components of the vehicles actually do function it does not say that all such components are legal.

Various acts of parliament say certain vehicle components should meet certain requirements. The Road Traffic Act states it is an offence to supply, fit or use a defective item.

Now vehicle glass has to be safety glass and it is normally tested and approved to UNECE Regulation 43 and must be marked as such. Now if the windscreen etc does not carry the correct approval it is a major defect under the current MOT criteria.

Now whilst headlights need to carry an approval mark under UK Vehicle Lighting Regulations there is no requirement under the current UK MOT to check the approval markings it was a requirement under the EC directive on periodic roadworthiness testing. So illegal headlights can pass the MOT but vehicle will still be illegal.


Yes there are various exceptions to these laws etc, but they will not apply to the majority of Defenders.


Brendan
Post #734304 11th Oct 2018 10:36pm
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MikeJ



Member Since: 04 May 2014
Location: Dorchester, Dorset
Posts: 41

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 130 Puma 2.2 HCPU Fuji White
Bluest wrote:
blackwolf wrote:
According to greyhead.co.uk :-

greyhead.co.uk wrote:
ECE Regulations 48 and 98 are the ones which apply to HID headlights, and 48 is the one which deals specifically with how HID headlights must be fitted to be legal.

Headlight washers and automatic levelling
Part 6.2.9. "Other requirements" says: "Dipped-beam headlamps with a light source or LED module(s) producing the principal dipped beam and having a total objective luminous flux which exceeds 2,000 lumen shall only be installed in conjunction with the installation of headlamp cleaning device(s) according to Regulation No. 45.


So it seems that under European (ECE) law you cannont fit LED lights unless you also fit levelling and washing systems. Whether this is a UK MOT test failure is a different matter.

It is also questionable whether by fitting such units whether approved or not you are invalidating the Whole Vehicle Type Approval for the vehicle. I suspect that you are.

Massively complex. Good bye, good old days of simplicity! Big Cry


Maybe the approved aftermarket ones don't exceed 2000 lumens??? No idea, just a guess, as that would avoid the need for headlamp cleaning.


I think this is the key - If they're not too bright, then they're fine without levellers and washers.
I have a 2015 VW Amarok with factory HID's and no washers or automatic levelling system.
I queried it with VW when first delivered, because I thought it was a requirement too.
Post #734823 15th Oct 2018 12:00pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3993

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Since I posted I've read about other car makers keeping factory fit LEDs under 2000 lumens to avoid the need for washers etc. I think it is a common approach on cheaper cars where they want offer them as an option. At the end of the day 99% of customers will be happy just to say "it's got LEDs innit" regardless of brightness 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
Post #734828 15th Oct 2018 12:35pm
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Matt_H



Member Since: 19 Sep 2018
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 41

United Kingdom 2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Zambezi Silver
Matt_H wrote:
Ok so I've managed to get to it.

Have to say I'm really not that happy with the Landreiziger loom. I see that the quality looks good, but the lengths are all wrong.

There is barely enough length in the cross-car cable to be able to tuck it tidily across the top of the rad, and in doing so it means that the relays end up floating loose behind the airbox. This in turn gives you barely enough to get to the alternator.

I assume it was desgined for a TD5 - needs tweaking to be a good tidy fit in a Puma 2.4 : (


So now the darkness has arrived, this setup has had a good testing this week.

Censored ..ing Censored off with this loom.

This is on my good lady wifes car and bascially the lights would run fine but then after 10 minutes or so it all goes dark - then mostly work again on after stopping the car, this has happened 3 times this week (first week of proper use) including one time when it was getting so dark she had to get a recovery company out 5 miles from home and they wouldn't come back to life.

So I assumed this was going to be a simple earth or live connection issue and have been out in the cold this morning to in-theory solve it. I re-did the earth, even though it was good I opted for making it really excellent - its the best one on the car now I reckon. I then checked the live alternator connection and thats all good and tight, no issues there.

I should add that due to the really poor design of this loom for a Puma engine variant, you can't have the relays accessable from under the bonnet (they end up behind the airbox) so to do anything to test this setup you have to do it "through" the headlight hole from the front - a real pain.

After fiddling about with the reachable obvious connections and not getting it to light up I gave up and connected the headlamps back to the original Land Rover H4 connectors - all now working fine. Frankly having spent over fifty quid for what was supposed to be a quality product I should not be in a position where I am going to have to pull it out and bench test it all to find the fault (not about to try and do it through the headlamp hole!). This can wait till a warmer day.

Bah humbug.

Matt.
Post #741114 18th Nov 2018 3:38pm
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kmac



Member Since: 07 Oct 2009
Location: Middlesex
Posts: 1294

United Kingdom 2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black
Doesn't solve you problem Matt, but you can make these for a lot less than 50 quid!!

That way you can measure and adjust cable lengths accordingly
Post #741209 19th Nov 2018 9:52am
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Matt_H



Member Since: 19 Sep 2018
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 41

United Kingdom 2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Zambezi Silver
Agreed Kmac, as I put in an earlier reply I'll make my own next time - had it been lengthed appropriately I would be less irritated with it as I could troubleshoot without having to pull the headlight out.

What also bumps the price up is the postage from Europe.
Post #741219 19th Nov 2018 11:09am
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