 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > accelerating in 2nd (and 3rd) - 2.2tdci |
 
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610   
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What was wrong with Pete Bell's answer on the other thread? 2.2s are notorious for kangarooing. Putting that into the search tool throws up 54 threads many 2.2 related, plenty of information there.
If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!! Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! |
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15th Mar 2015 11:17am |
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| landlocked Member Since: 23 Feb 2014 Location: London/Lincolnshire Posts: 46 
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nothing was wrong with it - i just didn't want to clog up his thread with non BAS related information.
As i've just noted in the previous thread - i'm not certain this was happening before and feels like such an obvious defect. It's hard to find this is the topics as you have to know what your searching for... Best Corris Grey 110 XS SW |
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15th Mar 2015 11:23am |
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610
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If you can't find enough information on 'kangaroo'....'rev hang' is another popular one for exactly the same symptoms you describe. Hope this helps.
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic32309.html?highlight=rev+hang http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic20992.html?highlight=rev+hang If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!! Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! |
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15th Mar 2015 11:26am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6265  
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just to throw a spanner into the works. if some have a 2.2 that doesn't kangaroo doesn't that kind of suggest it's not the map as all the maps per-re-map are the same). I'd be looking elsewhere ie drive train and in particular the hand brake perhaps? (but as said many many times before by myself and mostly others - 'what do I know') |
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15th Mar 2015 11:28am |
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| K9F Member Since: 12 Nov 2009 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 9610
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No doubt you would be looking just about everywhere but where you actually need to concentrate on. I shall keep it polite but what on Earth is the reasoning behind your post when the kangarooing/rev hang features so prominent on the forum and elsewhere, apart from perhaps sending people on one of your marathon wild goose chases?  If you go through life with your head in the sand....all people will see is an ar5e!!
Treat every day as if it is your last....one day you will be right!! |
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15th Mar 2015 11:33am |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 09 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2260 |
Cateram I am new to defenders ( so dont know the norm)but mine now feels like your driving with the handbrake on .....takes a lot of throttle in 4th 5th 6th to get it up to seventy. i dont do a lot of miles (weekend warrier)have only had it a few months but im sure it wasnt like that a month or so ago. there are no engine warning lights but it just feels as ive said the handbrakes on . I am new to transmission brakes so how do you test it?If it was a normal handbrake i would jack up the wheels and look for sticking?It does appear to roll back if your stationary on an incline and take the foot of the footbrake brake but i suppose the truck does have a big mass! |
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15th Mar 2015 12:01pm |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232 
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You could ask your tuner to adjust the torque request at the 800rpm idle speed if thats where your problem is mostly though not their thing to fix really, or drive round it ?
1st gear std 0.781% throttle scaling to 99.609% for 800rpm idle speed. -23.844Nm -5.688 11.844 33.531 68.281 89.500 112.594 130.906 147.594 164.844 177.844 183.750 196.938 223.500 207.906 207.656 2nd gear -19.531 10.406 26.875 61.406 84.719 104.844 124.438 144.031 153.969 168.000 178.031 188.906 198.750 229.906 230.594 230.563 3rd gear -19.531 10.406 26.875 61.406 84.719 104.844 124.438 144.031 153.969 168.000 178.031 188.906 198.750 229.906 230.594 230.563 4th gear -19.531 10.406 26.875 61.406 84.719 104.844 124.438 144.031 153.969 168.000 178.031 188.906 198.750 229.906 230.594 230.563 5th gear -25.906 5.594 23.656 56.719 79.250 105.094 124.406 142.250 159.406 177.938 187.844 193.531 207.844 229.469 229.219 229.250 6th gear -21.344 74.906 100.250 141.500 159.188 176.750 177.813 176.844 175.781 175.156 174.344 173.656 171.063 171.000 222.375 222.375 Note that at 0.781% throttle and in some cases 2.344% throttle their is a minus torque request figure as standard, the jerking will no doubt be coming from the transition as you throttle between 0.781% no throttle and upto 5.859% where the request goes from a minus NM request to a positive NM request with quite a jump. 1st gear difference between the two is 35.284Nm jump 2nd gear difference between the two is 46.406Nm jump 3rd gear difference between the two is 46.406Nm jump 4th gear difference between the two is 46.406Nm jump 5th gear difference between the two is 49.562Nm jump 6th gear difference between the two is 121.594Nm jump. This is the one that when cruising on the motorway at speed gives you the drivetrain clunk when you come on and off the the throttle. Other maps also change things about a little but a tuner worth their salt should know that and so more changes may be needed to find a work round and fix the quirk should they wish to tackle it. BUT the point im making is to jump between a minus Nm figure and a positive Nm figure on very small throttle action can give a big jump in Nm the engine is producing and so make a jerking action as it makes power then not then does then not etc etc. The above said its not the tuners responcibility at idle speed as I personally feel its a fault built into the factory calibration. If eniough people complain to LR correctly about it they should be forced into making a real fix for it and not just leave it with unhappy people and cars. Normal remap tuning is not designed or aimed to fix all LR factory quirks especially at idle speed type rpms if im honest, especially with no throttle action going on and so really its not your tuners fault or problem in the politest possibile way. Providing they have not messed with something in that area at the time of your remap they dont understand 
Its also may be worth having done on the car the PCM service adaptation reset. Hope that all makes sense. PS who did your remap ? Pete |
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15th Mar 2015 1:34pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6265
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Looking back now I'm sure a lot of the kangarooing I was getting was related to the hand brake rubbing? Funny how should mention the symptom of being like the hand brake is on......simply a sensation of reduced power / responsiveness (no grinding or noises like the brakes are on just the sensation of pulling a heavy trailer? ). If so I still get this occasionally? It's not often and as it's smooth I don't worry too much as I don't think it's causing any mechanical strain........could it possibly be an abs / to fault and brakes actually are on? |
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15th Mar 2015 3:24pm |
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| rover Member Since: 26 May 2012 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 146
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I know from this forum, other forums and by speaking to 2.2 owners that there are a lot of 2.2 with this problem. Surely a remap companys primary responsibility is making customers happy and making money. I have 500 quid waiting for a remap company that can solve my 2.2s crappy drive at low speed, low gears, both in high and low box.
I agrees that LR should sort it but I think I would be waiting a long time for them to do it. A few months ago dieselyoda said he was working on a cure but nothing has been posted since. |
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15th Mar 2015 3:45pm |
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| nitram17 Member Since: 09 Jun 2014 Location: newcastle Posts: 2260 |
Exactly this! no unusial noises.........just trying to get to 70 on the flat and having to press the gas pedal to far and getting very little response .......i jacked up the back today to check the rear wheels for movement with the brakes of....as im not used to judging such large heavy wheels for play bit i think they are not sticking!its not exactly free wheeling but im sure its normall for heavy defender wheels!Is it a myth that supermarket fuel is pants as i filled up last week at tescos?Mine also jerks but not consistantly ...you just get used to it! |
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15th Mar 2015 4:11pm |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232
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To totally remove the kangaroo in ALL applications and possibile sinario will not be an easy task especially combining it with needed engine braking at 0 throttle and all the other places in the drive cycle that need 0 engine torque.
I hear what you are saying about remapping it out as part of a performance remap but the long and short of it is as a business is that the full dev time needed could never easly be recovered from before the solution could have recovered that cost in out going sales. The above said it is something I keep adding more to as part of my remap progression and developement as well as cracking the Ecu to be FULL OBD but something I can not dedicate all my time to. Pete. Last edited by bell-auto-services on 2nd Jun 2015 5:01pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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15th Mar 2015 4:38pm |
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| Alive Tuning Member Since: 01 Mar 2010 Location: Louth Posts: 609 
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I can only agree with what Pete has said, with regard to torque delivery at no or little pedal value signal and the affects this can have.
Just to add to this, the 0.781% throttle scaling to 99.609% Pete mentioned has quite a gentle and forgiving ramp rate up to around 40%, but this is only applicable to 1st gear (Manual Transmission), and then changes to 0.390% to 99.605% from 2nd gear through to 6th gear. 
It's common for many other tuners to 'tune' several throttle maps that in fact really shouldn't be touched on a Defender, as these are for Auto Transmission models (such as the Ford Ranger). These do still have an affect on throttle response and harshness of the Defender, making this issue much worse, so it is my opinion that these maps should be left alone to retain the low end throttle characteristics of the standard Defender. There are other things that can be done to dampen low end throttle transitions.
If you are able to get over to Northern Lincolnshire, I would be happy to demonstrate how it should and shouldn't be done. 
Regards, Gary. EDIT: Done a bit of digging and found the build spec on the car... http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic30604.html |
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16th Mar 2015 1:09am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16892 
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Pete and Gary. thank you both for your very interesting posts!
(As an engineer who spent some 20 years working with embedded systems - long ago, and in a completely unrelated industry (digital telecomms switches) - it is always interesting to learn a little more about the working of the ECU). I am so glad I have a 2.4 not a 2.2! My (BAS-mapped) 2.4 will potter along quite happily on tickover in 1st or 2nd and then accelerate as smoothly as a smooth thing when the acclerator is pressed. It amazes me how something so right on the 2.4 became so wrong on the 2.2, and i am convinced that the relative design inputs of Ford and Landrover is the only explanation. I notice that DieselYoda seems to have gone very quite again. |
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16th Mar 2015 11:06am |
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| bell-auto-services Member Since: 08 Jul 2007 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2232
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And at long last after I hilighted the problem area some time ago LR eventually release the Autobiography 150bhp which is as smooth as silk in comparison to the old calibration. We have both 150bhp and 170bhp versions available on our new BAS2 Remote Remap Control tool should it take your fancy. https://secure.bellautoservices.co.uk/stor...biography/ https://secure.bellautoservices.co.uk/stor...biography/ Regards Pete Regards Pete |
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2nd Jun 2015 4:59pm |
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