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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Puma 2.2 unstable/waiving rmp
This winter I observed first time some issues with keeping the rpms stable. Unclear conditions. It was potentially corelated with very cold weather, however, it is not the first winter together so....
My humble interpretation is there is something not ok with fuel 'path'. Few symptoms, which are not always happening, but in the past they were not at all:

1. Cold start - typically when I turn the key and wait before ignition, it was good enough to have quick 2-3 rounds before engine start. All smooth and 'clear'. When I start engine immediately, it sometimes requires more rounds, but only if really cold outside. Currently, even I wait properly some seconds, then start the engine, it took 5+ rounds easily. Then - not very often, first few seconds are a little bit chaotic. Sometimes even with engine is hot it takes few rounds to start the engine again (in the past it was just a click). As mentioned - not always happens, now less and less as weather improves to plus temperatures more permanently.

2. Unstable rpms - this is kind of random, happens mostly when starts after some break (so engine is warm), but had also once or twice the with cold engine. Both with lower rmps (below 2k). E.g. I drove with stable 55km/h already on 4th gear, flat road, then rpms starts to waive between 1500-1600 every second, giving kind of kangaroo effect. It was just enough I increate rmps, and the symptom disappear. And didn't come back although I slow down back to the same conditions.

Both above seems to me as some issue with fuel pomp? Or dirty fuel (or water/air in the fuel?)
Any hints here can be helpful. This is my only diesel engine I'm using, and actually didn't have any this type of issues in the past. I was actually quite proud the engine was running smoothly.
Other than that - when proper speed and rpms are used - I do not see any symptoms of power loss, overheating etc. Cannot judge the noise (if engine is more noisy then earlier), as it is just super laud comparing to all other cars I'm using Wink

I have an inspection and annual oil/filter change later this week as LR service, so I can try to push them to make some specific check - related to both engine/fuel symptom, as well as electrical/sensor issues. But I would like to have some ideas first, so I can avoid some dummy answers from them.
Post #1030202 2nd Apr 2024 2:56pm
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Ianh



Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1757

United Kingdom 
When was the fuel filter last drained or replaced ? If not for a while it could be the fuel filter.

Alternatively it could be the injectors, a bottle of Forte Specialist Vehicle Diesel Injector Cleaner poured directly into a new fuel filter, then fitted, with any remaining poured into your tank should give the injectors a good clean.

Have you any diagnostic tools to plug into the OBD2 port ? That way you can provide any diagnostic trouble codes (DTC’s) that have been registered to help localise the issue.
On the 2.4 many of the issues you raise, plus many others, are a result of a bad VCV. However the 2.2 has a different VCV and I’ve yet to read any posts on one failing. Not to say it is not the VCV but far less likely than with a 2.4.
Post #1030229 2nd Apr 2024 5:39pm
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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Based on service book, fuel filter has been changes in Nov'22 during previous service, then in '20 accordingly. Small service planned for this year, but I believe I can add it into the list.

I keep connected UltraGauge all the time (at least last weeks). No pending errors. Few weeks ago I had P0113, which cleaned itself, the appear again, and I erase it with UG, then never come back. However, both symptoms were observed weeks earlier already. That could suggest also some electrical problem, bad connection to one of sensors or so. In the past, 2 years ago I had some errors related to EGR (replaced).
Overall symptoms are not every time, however longer start (more rounds before engine starts) is noticeable most of the time.
Post #1030231 2nd Apr 2024 5:56pm
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Ianh



Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1757

United Kingdom 
I think we need to go back to first principles.

So it looks like you have fuel/ air mixture issue, the only code you have recently had is P0113. No recent EGR, injector or turbo related DTC’s.

This indicates it’s on the air flow side. So either MAF sensor, Air Charge Temperature Sensor, connectors or wiring to either, or a split in one of the hoses from the airbox to the inlet manifold or a slight split in the intercooler. Potentially a sticking throttle Body. On the hose front the 90 degree elbow to the inlet manifold is prone to splitting, as is the intercooler seam.

Ps check air filter is ok and airbox lid is also fitted correctly.

These are the first areas I would investigate. The hoses and intercooler can be visually inspected and tested, there area few topics on here on how to pressure test the hoses and IC.
Post #1030300 3rd Apr 2024 12:32am
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3204

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
I had an old diesel on a VW, not electronically controlled, but had same symptoms as what the OP describes, caused by a stuck open EGR. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #1030307 3rd Apr 2024 4:30am
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Naks



Member Since: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, ZA
Posts: 2588

South Africa 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Alpine White
sounds like a failing VCV valve --
2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
2015 Range Rover Sport V8 Supercharged



Defender Puma Workshop Manual: https://bit.ly/2zZ1en9
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Post #1030314 3rd Apr 2024 7:14am
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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Thank you all for suggestions.
Yes, no DTC errors last 2 years other that recent P0113, however odd symptoms started some time earlier.
Hose(s) has been replaced few year ago, so maybe it is a time again...

I'll let you know within next days if I found something. Tomorrow I do the annual service/check, so new air filter at least, as well as professional diagnostic comp connected - maybe my UG doesn't show all stuff.
Post #1030343 3rd Apr 2024 10:25am
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hank



Member Since: 12 Sep 2016
Location: South Wales
Posts: 2230

Wales 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Post #1030348 3rd Apr 2024 11:43am
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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
After visual inspection, as well as some checks by LR service during recent inspection, conclusion are as follow:
- no visible issue with hoses nor cabling
- Service suggest to replace MAF, as its reading reports out of proper range.
- no other issues/suggestions provided.
Air filter replaced

I wrote in specific MAF topic separately, as I'm not sure the MAF I have currently mounted is the correct one. It is a replacement (Delphi), but numbers and the looks doesn't match (square corners, instead of one rounded, different item suggested by on-line shops). From other hands, it must be there at least last 4 years, visually clean. I'll change it to new one anyway, just need to be sure what exactly should I put here.

Waiving rpm's not really observed last days. If any symptoms (but that's quite "normal", I mean it was always there), car has a tendency do shake a little bit, when I run slowly with low rpm, e.g. stuck in the traffic jam. When I see longer one, I change to low gears, but sometimes happen traffic jam goes away, and I have to stop to change low to high... Anyway - crawling very slow on 1st, 2nd gear, I'm sometimes got kangaroo effect, like short fuel cut.

I'll clean VCV as well, I found some oil on intake temp sensor (although sensor looks very good after cleaning), so I can assume some stuff is also in the pipes and VCVs.

here one more question related to Air Filter box. Although it seems to be mounted as required, I have impression it can be easily moved by hand 1-2 inch into the rights, then it loudly knocks some other parts below. I would expect it should be rather fixed somehow, so it stays stable. Any hints about it?
Post #1030768 6th Apr 2024 8:34pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3204

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
Also worth to check the clutch pressure switch. Some people bypass the switch (short circuit the connector on a tdci). When I tried that, the engine response was too quick leading to kangarooing.
On the other hand, when I left it disconnected (open circuit) the rev hang was too high. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #1030794 7th Apr 2024 6:27am
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Ianh



Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1757

United Kingdom 
BrunoJ wrote:

here one more question related to Air Filter box. Although it seems to be mounted as required, I have impression it can be easily moved by hand 1-2 inch into the rights, then it loudly knocks some other parts below. I would expect it should be rather fixed somehow, so it stays stable. Any hints about it?


The airbox has four mounting prongs, two at the bottom , two at the wing side. These slot into bottom and side brackets via thick rubber grommets. In general the prongs seize into the rubber grommets, which makes it very hard to remove the airbox without removal of the wing bracket which is riveted on top of the wing arch liner with 6 wide head rivets.

Your airbox should not move as you described.

What could have happened is someone has removed /attempted to remove the airbox. In doing so they may have broken one or more prongs, lost one or more rubber grommets, Broke the wing ( arch liner) side bracket ( this is most likely as its hard plastic) , removed the side bracket and not refitted or not riveted the side bracket properly.

BrunoJ wrote:

I wrote in specific MAF topic separately, as I'm not sure the MAF I have currently mounted is the correct one. It is a replacement (Delphi), but numbers and the looks doesn't match (square corners, instead of one rounded, different item suggested by on-line shops). From other hands, it must be there at least last 4 years, visually clean. I'll change it to new one anyway, just need to be sure what exactly should I put here.

Waiving rpm's not really observed last days. If any symptoms (but that's quite "normal", I mean it was always there), car has a tendency do shake a little bit, when I run slowly with low rpm, e.g. stuck in the traffic jam. When I see longer one, I change to low gears, but sometimes happen traffic jam goes away, and I have to stop to change low to high... Anyway - crawling very slow on 1st, 2nd gear, I'm sometimes got kangaroo effect, like short fuel cut.

As per my reply on the MAF topic, it seems you have the incorrect MAF fitted, the one you have being for a 2.4, not a 2.2 and they are different. This is very likely the cause of your main issue, and potentially the cause of your fluctuating RPM’s. We will know more when you have a correct quantity MAF sensor fitted.
Post #1030822 7th Apr 2024 12:09pm
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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
New MAF ordered (Hitachi), so I can test it within few days. I'll also do the cleaning of MAP and VCV and check again all hoses/pipes. What is interesting about the MAF, I have it at least 4 years, probably longer. And fluctuating RPMs (sometimes), appeared just last winter. That suggests this MAF worked well enough before (still could be out of proper ranges etc).

I'll check the airbox, and try to dismount it to see what's missing/broken and if I'm able to make it more stable. I'm not sure when airbox has been removed and how it is in current shape. Car had whole engine replaced in '17, last year I did complex de-rusting, someone maybe try to access that area.

Clutch switch added to the list for verification. Clutch has been replaced in LR service already some time ago, I assume it should be connected a required by factory. I didn't introduce any mods. Symptoms are not new and were there most of the time, I'm just trying to avoid running car with such conditions.
Post #1030868 7th Apr 2024 6:27pm
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andy63



Member Since: 30 Jun 2023
Location: north east
Posts: 238

United Kingdom 2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 CSW Aintree Green
Just reading the issue of fluctuating rpm and mass air flow.. I keep thinking it would be useful if you had a bit more information.. Ie either actual values for the air flow off a scan tool or the frequency trace off a scope..
I'm inclined to think the same as you have said.. If that sensor has been on for possibly over 4years I can't see it not been the correct type..that's not to say it's good now..
Fluctuating revs to me sort of points to more likely a fueling related issue 🤔
Post #1030880 7th Apr 2024 7:41pm
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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
That was my first idea as well, about the fuel path. I'll anyway change the MAF and keep old one as a spare. Let's see if that change anything.
Yes, I'd like to have better possibility for diagnostics. Maybe time to think about Nanocom, or similar.
Post #1030882 7th Apr 2024 7:54pm
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BrunoJ



Member Since: 14 Sep 2019
Location: Stavanger
Posts: 58

Norway 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green
Well... I replaced MAF with new one, the proper dedicated to this specific model.
First of all - I got back all readings of temperatures and EGR on my Ultragauge (separate Thread). Quite unexpected.
Driving just few times with replaced part, so I cannot fully confirm it (and it can be also a placebo effect), but my impression is:
- more quite cold start, no super big difference, but it is noticeable.
- less 'kangaroo' on low speed (really have to test it more, but again - kind of noticeable)
- I have impression speed up is less aggressive, but smoother at the same time. Like a little bit less power, but better Nm curve. Previously car was more 'sharp', but - especially with lower RPMs less controllable, therefore shaky from time to time.

Those differences are not very big, and that could be the only excuse for all LR services who had a chance to see/drive the car telling "everything is fine". I definitely have to drive longer period to be sure the effect, but looks like replacing MAF was a good move. Some issues I experienced during winter time, I'm afraid I will be able to test within few months eventually (although we have some snow in mountains close by, but no deep freeze any more.
Also probably few refilling to ensure the issue was not caused by bad fuel.

Airbox not fixed at this moment, It has bottom mounting points, but definitely not mounted properly on its left side (cannot easy inspect it). But seems to have no direct impact on the issues. I tend to believe it could happen last year when corrosion-proof service has been done for whole chassis and body, and someone tried to get better access to hidden places of engine bay.

I'll write again after some additional days of riding, to confirm the results or provide some new findings. Happy so far. And yes - I was driving with previous conditions last few years, assuming it is a specific of the car. 4 annual inspections, few additional services in LR and independent LR fun boys service. And nobody mentioned me something is not correct.
Post #1031697 15th Apr 2024 8:14pm
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